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User Disengagement

zerodha.tech

11–20 of 53 posts

Re: User Disengagement

#11

We are working on a B2B application right now and we're seeing 2 linked patterns we're looking to overcome: -- one strong champion in the customer organisation that uses us actively, then changes jobs / goes on maternity leave / retires -> customer churns -- a champion in the customer organisation does not find the time to onboard other users in their company, so the value of what we offer is smaller than it could be…

We have the same issue in the B2B company I worked at.

Currently we're implementing strategies to reduce the barrier of entry by making the product onboard the new customer. We just started and we still have a long way to go but I think it's the right solution.

Reducing the cost of onboarding for the customer and making it easy to invite other member should help avoid churn.

Re: User Disengagement

#12

We are working on a B2B application right now and we're seeing 2 linked patterns we're looking to overcome: -- one strong champion in the customer organisation that uses us actively, then changes jobs / goes on maternity leave / retires -> customer churns -- a champion in the customer organisation does not find the time to onboard other users in their company, so the value of what we offer is smaller than it could be…

I’m in exactly the same boat with my B2B SaaS — particularly with the champion finding time to onboard the rest of their team.

Our app takes a bit of setup time, and I put a lot of work into making a really user-friendly “onboarding guide”, basically a checklist of things to do to set up the account, accompanied by visual call-outs for each step in the UI.

Before we had this, we forced companies to complete the full setup before they could use the app… As you might expect, many just gave up.

But since adding our onboarding checklist (and changing our platform to assume lots more defaults, reducing the number of actions required to get started, and allowing it to be used “out of the box”), we now have a new problem: more companies are using us actively, but many of them never complete the full setup, so it isn’t fully tailored to suit them.

The checklist UI dismisses itself automatically after all the steps are complete (there’s only 5, and honestly it takes 2 minutes, but there we go). I often look at active user accounts over 6 months old, and so many of them are using us daily but with a big “Getting Started” checklist still following them round the site!

I guess that’s users for you… Not sure how to improve this, practically speaking — we’ve already reduced the checklist down to the bare essentials — but open to any ideas…

Re: User Disengagement

#13
I don't know anything about the company but I applaud the sentiment. But is it obvious to note that a lot of companies start with similar ideas... and then any number of forces -- the market, shareholders, the board, management changes, black swans -- cause the screws to tighten? And then the ideals begin to erode.

I guess I'm sort of implying (without any empirical proof) that there are darwinian reasons for state of things that are inherently difficult to avoid.

Re: User Disengagement

#14
I love this piece. I philosophically agree with most of it (in fact I wrote a previous HN front-pager* called Disrespectful Design).

But a bunch of the advice is just not practical because of, well, human psychology. For example, there's a lot of research showing that in competitive markets, people lazily choose the product with the most visible brand (or that is most accessible, ie in your face at the shelf on the supermarket—you can draw analogies to virtual products).

Or, for products with infrequent use-cases, users won't remember to come back and use your product when the time comes. Zillow is a good example of this. The real value is when you are buying, selling, (or renting) a house, but that happens so infrequently. So they've built other ways to keep their app on your phone and their brand in your mind, like the Zestimate score (where homeowners or potential home buyers will check that score on a more frequent basis).

Also, engagement tracking _is_ kind of critical to developing/understanding your product.

So it's not so much about what you do and don't do, it's more about _how_ you do it. Do you track engagement AND solely optimize it?

In any case, loved the article and agree with most of the discussion... just would encourage people to take a more pragmatic method to avoiding the engagement trap.

*https://somehowmanage.com/2020/09/13/disrespectful-design-us...

Re: User Disengagement

#15

I don't know anything about the company but I applaud the sentiment. But is it obvious to note that a lot of companies start with similar ideas... and then any number of forces -- the market, shareholders, the board, management changes, black swans -- cause the screws to tighten? And then the ideals begin to erode. I guess I'm sort of implying (without any empirical proof) that there are darwinian reasons for state o…

Business models (aka incentives) are often more important than culture or intention.

Re: User Disengagement

#16
post #12

We are working on a B2B application right now and we're seeing 2 linked patterns we're looking to overcome: -- one strong champion in the customer organisation that uses us actively, then changes jobs / goes on maternity leave / retires -> customer churns -- a champion in the customer organisation does not find the time to onboard other users in their company, so the value of what we offer is smaller than it could be…

I’m in exactly the same boat with my B2B SaaS — particularly with the champion finding time to onboard the rest of their team. Our app takes a bit of setup time, and I put a lot of work into making a really user-friendly “onboarding guide”, basically a checklist of things to do to set up the account, accompanied by visual call-outs for each step in the UI. Before we had this, we forced companies to complete the full…

Curious to know whether that checklist is framed in terms of things to do or benefits they would get. I would guess they would perceive it as less daunting if you present them with what they would concretely gain from doing the thing.

No idea what you'd do beyond that though... Maybe I introduce some competitive aspect, like "you're already more involved than 60% of our users. You can get to 90% with this"? Or translate it in terms of real value gained from finishing the onboarding? Idk

Re: User Disengagement

#17
> No marketing team. $0 marketing spend.

Blogging is marketing too, so this statement in particular is not accurate.

In fact, I would say that this very post was quite convincing and a good marketing — and branding — example.

It made me want to know more about this company and “engage” more with it.

Re: User Disengagement

#19
post #8

Zerodha has had the good fortune of ending up building a good product whilst the market needed it. If the pandemic had not happened, the growth would not have been what it is right now and that is when “build it and the users will come” philosophy stops working. The engagement metrics do work, but just like everything else in life, if you overoptimize for any one thing, it is detrimental (eg- drinking water in excess…

I don't think "engagement metrics" work. I mean, the objective of any business should be to make profit, so the metric that should matter is ultimately the average revenue per user. Engagement may in some cases correlate but why use a proxy when you can use the most important metric directly? "engagement" only comes into play when you don't have a business model to begin with (and instead hope to carry on raising mor…

They do work. You can draw a straight line from “Engagement metrics” to a working business model that generates real revenue. There are several B2C products that derive their value from engagement. And it is frequently a leading indicator of how viable a product can be.

But like all metrics, one should not over optimize on any one metric - be it engagement, revenue, growth rate etc.

The biggest issue has been a lack of balance between engagement and usability which unfortunately has been dominated by engagement over usability.

Re: User Disengagement

#20
post #12

We are working on a B2B application right now and we're seeing 2 linked patterns we're looking to overcome: -- one strong champion in the customer organisation that uses us actively, then changes jobs / goes on maternity leave / retires -> customer churns -- a champion in the customer organisation does not find the time to onboard other users in their company, so the value of what we offer is smaller than it could be…

I’m in exactly the same boat with my B2B SaaS — particularly with the champion finding time to onboard the rest of their team. Our app takes a bit of setup time, and I put a lot of work into making a really user-friendly “onboarding guide”, basically a checklist of things to do to set up the account, accompanied by visual call-outs for each step in the UI. Before we had this, we forced companies to complete the full…

I'll reply to you, though there are a couple others in this comment chain that it seems relevant (but possibly not...) to - Airtable has one of the best API guides I've seen, because you can load it up in a table you already have, and it creates examples _with your table_.

So no longer do you have docs that say "suppose you want to create a new entry for a sedan, which can be either red or blue", but instead has content from your actual existing table.

It sounds like a small thing, but it greatly reduces that bit of cognitive dissonance/overhead ("why are we talking about cars, I want to update the contact options for this customer") when trying to learn a new system (especially critical for less tech-savvy users), so might be applicable to other products.

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