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The Hypocrisy of Occupy Wall Street

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Re: The Hypocrisy of Occupy Wall Street

#11

Post by m311ton »

dfxm12 wrote: post #3

Unfortunately, this article (and regrettably most of the 99%ers) are missing the point entirely. This isn't about "99% of us don't have enough". It is about "The rich get richer simply because they are rich." The article states We created the beast that we protest against. We also possess the power to defeat it... We have the means for change, we work hard for it, and WE are the 99%. The problem is we've been working…

I'm not sure you would find many that disagree with this argument. But this movement, like many others, has been hijacked by people who aren't quite aligned with that message. The purity of it has been disrupted and that becomes the story that is told to the world.

Keeping others down with immense resources is not a new problem to the United States or humanity. Throughout the history of mankind those in power have attempted to use their resources to stay in power and the result is some sort of social, economic, or socioeconomic battle. Ultimately the winning course has always involved reinventing the game in a way that changes the rules and neutralizes the resources of those in power.

The point of the article, which is an opinion not a formal piece of journalism, takes a roundabout way to recommending more reasonable courses of action. The way I see it, if you don't like what the big banks are doing, for example, you do have options to get around dealing with them. If enough people organize around that vision, instead of protesting, you create a much more powerful market force.

Re: The Hypocrisy of Occupy Wall Street

#12

Post by gatlin »

OpieCunningham wrote: post #10
gatlin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a massive area between the two extremes, and I will assume you are putting me at one of them. This means I failed to communicate. If my food, entertainment, services, and small expenditures are predominantly local and my money is in a credit union I and my community have control over, then 1) I haven't gone "back to the land" but simply back to my home, and 2) that is money not going to any of the companies…

You stated a "real solution" was what I summarized as "back to the land", including dropping wireless contracts. That says to me you view other solutions as not real. That's an indication, not explicit certainly, that at some level you believe there are only 2 extremes available, as I described. Another solution is to demonstrate displeasure with the operation of government and methods of corporate interests. Engage…

I explained in my reply that my solution is a fairly middle-ground endeavor: if you can avoid giving your money to The Problem, then do so. Notice I didn't say radically change your life.

The Civil Rights movement was monumental but it didn't eradicate racism, the strong correlation between race and class, the achievement gap, or any number of equity issues. It caused us to shift what we consider to be normal and acceptable. Another component was people ditching the prejudices of their forefathers and doing something differently than before. Protest was complemented by action, which has been slowly changing the dynamics I described.

Our exchange has helped me realize that I should frame my solution as a complement to the protests. Protests, by themselves, can be ignored, spun, and crushed under rubber soles. Action in the form of starving the machine you're protesting against complements this and shows that you are listening. It combines the "We're mad as hell" with the "we're not going to take it anymore."

OWS is definitely galvanizing us to come up with a solution, but I don't think it is one on its own.

Re: The Hypocrisy of Occupy Wall Street

#13

Post by OpieCunningham »

gatlin wrote: post #12
OpieCunningham wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You stated a "real solution" was what I summarized as "back to the land", including dropping wireless contracts. That says to me you view other solutions as not real. That's an indication, not explicit certainly, that at some level you believe there are only 2 extremes available, as I described. Another solution is to demonstrate displeasure with the operation of government and methods of corporate interests. Engage…

I explained in my reply that my solution is a fairly middle-ground endeavor: if you can avoid giving your money to The Problem, then do so. Notice I didn't say radically change your life. The Civil Rights movement was monumental but it didn't eradicate racism, the strong correlation between race and class, the achievement gap, or any number of equity issues. It caused us to shift what we consider to be normal and acc…

The Civil Rights movement was monumental but it didn't eradicate racism

No. But it did lead to the government creating laws and regulations called the Civil Rights Act, which enforced desegregation and more. A dramatically major step towards adjusting society to address the existing problem.

Considering effectively zero laws and regulations of merit have been implemented since 2008 in regards to the out of control behavior on Wall St, a comparative measure to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 seems to be in order. You're not going to get one by canceling you AT&T wireless plan and growing vegetables in your back yard.

Of course, I don't mean to imply that the things you're doing aren't positive. Certainly they are. My point is simply that OWS is significantly more powerful in nature.

Re: The Hypocrisy of Occupy Wall Street

#14

Post by sampsonjs »

From this site's About section:

"Since Jesus walked the earth, God specifically used the marketplace and its leaders to advance the Gospel. Our goal is to explore how God has historically chosen the marketplace to transform lives and how He seeks leaders to again step up and share His love through commerce: the lifeblood of every community.

As you explore God’s heart for business, understand that success in the marketplace and intimacy with Christ are not mutually exclusive. We seek to discover what it means to be anointed for business and the unique opportunity God has given us to transform markets with His love. Come unlock your destiny in the marketplace and become a market-smart and spiritually sharp leader who is empowered to advance the Gospel where it is needed most."

Jesus Christ.

Re: The Hypocrisy of Occupy Wall Street

#15

Post by gatlin »

OpieCunningham wrote: post #13
gatlin wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I explained in my reply that my solution is a fairly middle-ground endeavor: if you can avoid giving your money to The Problem, then do so. Notice I didn't say radically change your life. The Civil Rights movement was monumental but it didn't eradicate racism, the strong correlation between race and class, the achievement gap, or any number of equity issues. It caused us to shift what we consider to be normal and acc…

The Civil Rights movement was monumental but it didn't eradicate racism No. But it did lead to the government creating laws and regulations called the Civil Rights Act, which enforced desegregation and more. A dramatically major step towards adjusting society to address the existing problem. Considering effectively zero laws and regulations of merit have been implemented since 2008 in regards to the out of control be…

You have been very respectful, and I appreciate that, but on one hand you build up OWS and on the other reduce my solution to "cancel AT&T and grow vegetables." I believe that you could have more charitably summarized it as "stop giving money to these companies." One way to do it is to patronize locally owned alternatives and starve them. There are others, as well.

I could cut down OWS pretty harshly, too, but I do see its merit. It's one side of the Protest & Act coin. I would prefer people do both, not just complain loudly.

The Civil Rights act, fwiw, didn't solve any of the race-related problems I identified either. It was the perspective shift that protesting brought, and it opened doors. OWS might result in tighter regulations and laws which formally denigrate or outright restrict the kind of business which led to these problems in the first place but that only stops those who care about the law or are careless in their chicanery.

It does not resolve more fundamental issues: how did these people get this much power? How do we disrupt the cycle of people getting rich and using their wealth to keep others down? How do we keep people informed about complex financial risks? How do we bolster local economies? How do we get control of the institutions which have so much control over our lives?

OWS will not solve any of those things. It has successfully raised awareness but now we have to put our money where our mouths are.

Re: The Hypocrisy of Occupy Wall Street

#16

Post by OpieCunningham »

gatlin wrote: post #15
OpieCunningham wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Civil Rights movement was monumental but it didn't eradicate racism No. But it did lead to the government creating laws and regulations called the Civil Rights Act, which enforced desegregation and more. A dramatically major step towards adjusting society to address the existing problem. Considering effectively zero laws and regulations of merit have been implemented since 2008 in regards to the out of control be…

You have been very respectful, and I appreciate that, but on one hand you build up OWS and on the other reduce my solution to "cancel AT&T and grow vegetables." I believe that you could have more charitably summarized it as "stop giving money to these companies." One way to do it is to patronize locally owned alternatives and starve them. There are others, as well. I could cut down OWS pretty harshly, too, but I do s…

OWS will not solve any of those things.

I'd loosely categorize "those things" as greed. Nothing will solve greed just as nothing will solve racism. Government regulation is uniquely able to diminish the negative consequences of both greed and racism. The fact that government regulation is not able to eliminate greed and regulation is in no way a knock against government regulation. OWS is the most powerful method available to instigate government regulation.

BTW, I'm using examples of your philosophy to demonstrate the inherent limitations of it, in comparison to mass protestation. Boycotts are primarily effective on a local scale, not a national scale. If your intent is to stop a mom & pop from some ill behavior, a boycott is more effective than staging a sit-in outside their place of business. I can think of no national boycott that has instigated as much change as the civil rights protests of the 60's or the suffrage movement in the late 19th/early 20th centuries.

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