Kiva is matching loans for first time donors • Hacker News Board

Re: Kiva is matching loans for first time donors

#11

Post by waitwhat » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 10:18 AM UTC

nodata wrote: post #8

waitwhat wrote: post #7

Something people should be more aware of regarding Kiva... Ignore the pictures of the people you are purportedly lending to, their projects, and even their country. That is pure marketing. If you read the small-print http://www.kiva.org/about/how/even-more you will see that you aren't lending to these people at all, but actually making zero-interest, low-risk, short-term loans to micro-finance institutions. (That sai…

That's not quite true is it - if that person defaults you lose your money. It's similar to switching electricity suppliers (stay with me!) - you don't get a new cable straight from the electricity company which carries only "their" electricity, you stick with the same cable and the same electricity but more of your supplier's electricity gets bought.

That's not quite true is it - if that person defaults you lose your money.

Actually, it's your assertion that is not quite true.

It certainly used to be the case that "We give Field Partners the option to cover [...] entrepreneur defaults." [1] And there was indeed evidence at the time that Field Partners were doing just that. [2]

Although they have removed this explicit wording, it isn't clear that doing this is no longer allowed, and there is some evidence that the practice is continuing: Only 7 out of 128 pilot or active Field Partners report a default rate of more than 1%; indeed, around three-quarters of them report a default rate of 0.00%. [3] Frankly, these statistics are unbelievable unless we accept that most Field Partners still cover entrepreneur defaults.

So if the end-borrower defaults, you might lose money. But rather more likely is that the Field Partner will cover the loss themselves as an operating cost, not report any of this to Kiva, and you will be none-the-wiser.

[1] http://web.archive.org/web/20091117123031/http://www.kiva.or...

[2] http://blog.givewell.org/2009/10/13/kiva-repayment-data/

[3] http://www.kiva.org/partners

Re: Kiva is matching loans for first time donors

#12

Post by citricsquid » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 11:47 AM UTC

waitwhat wrote: post #7

Something people should be more aware of regarding Kiva... Ignore the pictures of the people you are purportedly lending to, their projects, and even their country. That is pure marketing. If you read the small-print http://www.kiva.org/about/how/even-more you will see that you aren't lending to these people at all, but actually making zero-interest, low-risk, short-term loans to micro-finance institutions. (That sai…

You're not entirely accurate.

They have microfinance partners, people approach these partners and the partners approach Kiva. Sometimes you'll see "pre-funded" loans where the person has approved the partner, the partner funded them and then Kiva is used to reimburse the partner.

You are lending to the people but through a proxy. If you put $25 in the microfinance partner redistributes $25 to the person, it just might not be the $25 you put in. Like a bank, the $100 you put in isn't the $100 you take out but the money is still yours.

Re: Kiva is matching loans for first time donors

#13

Post by waitwhat » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 2:21 PM UTC

citricsquid wrote: post #12

waitwhat wrote: post #7

Something people should be more aware of regarding Kiva... Ignore the pictures of the people you are purportedly lending to, their projects, and even their country. That is pure marketing. If you read the small-print http://www.kiva.org/about/how/even-more you will see that you aren't lending to these people at all, but actually making zero-interest, low-risk, short-term loans to micro-finance institutions. (That sai…

You're not entirely accurate. They have microfinance partners, people approach these partners and the partners approach Kiva. Sometimes you'll see "pre-funded" loans where the person has approved the partner, the partner funded them and then Kiva is used to reimburse the partner. You are lending to the people but through a proxy. If you put $25 in the microfinance partner redistributes $25 to the person, it just migh…

Sometimes you'll see "pre-funded" loans where the person has approved the partner, the partner funded them and then Kiva is used to reimburse the partner.

You're not entirely accurate when you write "sometimes". According to the process on the Kiva website http://www.kiva.org/about/how/even-more all loans are pre-disbursed, and in 5 minutes clicking around earlier, I couldn't find a single one which wasn't.

With pre-disbursed loans, as you say, Kiva is used to reimburse the partner, not the person behind the picture on the website (because those people already have their money.) So I stand behind what I said: Kiva users are making zero-interest, low-risk, short-term loans to micro-finance institutions.

The difference between $100 in the bank and $100 in Kiva is that Kiva pretends to put a face on the person this $100 is being lent back out to. They even give an illusion of choice, they appear to let you pick and choose who gets funded! Meanwhile my bank doesn't pretend to tell me who "my" $100 is lent back out to, and they certainly don't pretend to let me choose whose mortgage application gets funded, and whose doesn't.

Re: Kiva is matching loans for first time donors

#14

Post by kanamekun » Wed, Oct 12, 2011, 3:23 PM UTC

waitwhat wrote: post #11

nodata wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not quite true is it - if that person defaults you lose your money. It's similar to switching electricity suppliers (stay with me!) - you don't get a new cable straight from the electricity company which carries only "their" electricity, you stick with the same cable and the same electricity but more of your supplier's electricity gets bought.

That's not quite true is it - if that person defaults you lose your money. Actually, it's your assertion that is not quite true. It certainly used to be the case that "We give Field Partners the option to cover [...] entrepreneur defaults." [1] And there was indeed evidence at the time that Field Partners were doing just that. [2] Although they have removed this explicit wording, it isn't clear that doing this is no…

Kiva has been explicit that covering defaults is no longer allowed:

Going forward, when a Field Partner uploads a loan request, they will no longer be able to choose the option of covering borrower default.

For roughly a year, Kiva allowed its Field Partners the option to cover entrepreneur defaults. This meant that even if an entrepreneur you supported couldn't repay their loan, their Field Partner could opt to pay you back anyway.

Kiva originally decided to offer this option because it was more efficient to manage repayments on an institutional level. But after receiving feedback from you, we’ve realized that Kiva lenders are actually looking for a stronger connection between the lender and the entrepreneur.

Letting lenders take on the risk of a loan allows lenders to tie their loan dollars to the success of the borrowing entrepreneur - providing a connection that’s much more personal.

This change also allows the repayment statistics that we show on Kiva to represent of borrower repayments rather than institutional repayments; giving you a better depth of information to help you choose your loans. >>

http://www.kiva.org/updates/kiva/2010/02/10/update-on-recent...

Re: Kiva is matching loans for first time donors

#15

Post by waitwhat » Thu, Oct 13, 2011, 1:35 AM UTC

kanamekun wrote: post #14

waitwhat wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not quite true is it - if that person defaults you lose your money. Actually, it's your assertion that is not quite true. It certainly used to be the case that "We give Field Partners the option to cover [...] entrepreneur defaults." [1] And there was indeed evidence at the time that Field Partners were doing just that. [2] Although they have removed this explicit wording, it isn't clear that doing this is no…

Kiva has been explicit that covering defaults is no longer allowed: Going forward, when a Field Partner uploads a loan request, they will no longer be able to choose the option of covering borrower default. For roughly a year, Kiva allowed its Field Partners the option to cover entrepreneur defaults. This meant that even if an entrepreneur you supported couldn't repay their loan, their Field Partner could opt to pay…

Thanks for finding that.

However, only 7 out of 128 pilot or active Field Partners report a default rate of more than 1%; indeed, around three-quarters of them report a default rate of 0.00%.

These statistics just don't pass the smell test unless Field Partners are still covering entrepreneur defaults.