Live data from Hacker News

Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

ns.nl

11–20 of 365 posts

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of having redundancy if you can't use it to avoid an impact to service? Edit: and to be clear, we're not talking about holding down a resetable circuit breaker to avoid being late, we're talking about the rail network of an entire nation being inoperable for a day.

The point is to still have it when you didn’t know you needed it. That’s the purpose of all redundant safety systems. The redundancy isn’t there to keep the service operating; it’s to keep people from dying. You can never know if the primary safety system is functioning perfectly, so you need other systems to be there to step in when the primary fails unexpectedly . If you detect the primary system has failed, isn’t…

I'm not going to write the wall of text that's required to properly describe the situation but that's just not how these systems work. Industrial automation has all sorts of feedback loops so they people operating it know if they can trust it. The people using it are pretty much always trained in how to run the various systems manually so that an errant sensor doesn't turn into a clogged up rail line or waste whatever is in your process equipment that happens to be mid-cycle.

This isn't some consumer appliance where you have to stupid proof every inch of it. These systems are bespoke and their architecture is mostly a matter of business decisions and not at all a matter of the internet peanut gallery trying to figure out how safe they can make it.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#14
My curiosity is killing me as to what exactly went wrong. And as someone living in The Netherlands I'm also kind of mad at the apparent fragility of this huge chunk of our infrastructure. If this had happened on a work day, it would have been a real national emergency, rather than just a huge national inconvenience.

I would appreciate one of those post-outage "what happened" reports like with the AWS and Facebook outages last year. But outside of IT I don't think anyone really expects those over here. And there might be national security considerations preventing such disclosure until any chance of a repeat has been engineered away, at which point everyone will have forgotten.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#15
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defense in depth? With this safety feature inoperable, the margin of safety is reduced. Other systems that might normally provide safety critical redundancy could be providing the sole measure of safety, with no other redundancy available in case one of those fails. “Unsafe” is always defined based on context.

What's the point of having redundancy if you can't use it to avoid an impact to service? Edit: and to be clear, we're not talking about holding down a resetable circuit breaker to avoid being late, we're talking about the rail network of an entire nation being inoperable for a day.

A passenger aircraft can still fly with a failed engine, but it must land at the nearest suitable airport. Because at that point, another failure could not be accomodated. This sort of redundancy is about preventing disaster, not about avoiding service disruptions or keeping to a schedule.

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#16
post #7
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "unsafe"? Isn't safety supposed to be handled at a different abstraction level (in hardware)?

I think that trains can travel in both directions on the same track and the schedule keeps them from hitting each other head-on.

scheduling hasn't been used for preventing conflicting movements since the 1830s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_signalling#History_of_...

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is to still have it when you didn’t know you needed it. That’s the purpose of all redundant safety systems. The redundancy isn’t there to keep the service operating; it’s to keep people from dying. You can never know if the primary safety system is functioning perfectly, so you need other systems to be there to step in when the primary fails unexpectedly . If you detect the primary system has failed, isn’t…

I'm not going to write the wall of text that's required to properly describe the situation but that's just not how these systems work. Industrial automation has all sorts of feedback loops so they people operating it know if they can trust it. The people using it are pretty much always trained in how to run the various systems manually so that an errant sensor doesn't turn into a clogged up rail line or waste whateve…

If you want to claim public transit operators are happy to take on liability for potential deaths by continuing to operate when they know about reduced (or no) safety margin, that’s an interesting idea.

Calling me a ”clipboard warrior” isn’t furthering your argument, though.

This comment provides an excellent example along the lines I was talking about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30902016

Re: Due to failure in the IT system, it is not possible to run any trains today

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to write the wall of text that's required to properly describe the situation but that's just not how these systems work. Industrial automation has all sorts of feedback loops so they people operating it know if they can trust it. The people using it are pretty much always trained in how to run the various systems manually so that an errant sensor doesn't turn into a clogged up rail line or waste whateve…

If you want to claim public transit operators are happy to take on liability for potential deaths by continuing to operate when they know about reduced (or no) safety margin, that’s an interesting idea. Calling me a ”clipboard warrior” isn’t furthering your argument, though. This comment provides an excellent example along the lines I was talking about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30902016

No post body was provided.
Post reply on HN