The key word here is "blamed" as this has likely nothing to do with Autopilot. The person panicked and fled the scene and then made up stories to pretend they were not the cause of the accident.
Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent
11–20 of 66 posts
Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent
#12The run part: I think they're a young overseas resident who panicked. They returned and handed themselves in to police at the scene. A lot of younger foreigners have no idea what to do in an accident and in their home economy can face retribution, extortion, sometimes at the hands of police. In Australia, you stay, you help the victim, you report the accident. That's the law. In theory all drivers should know this bu…
> I think it's been misnamed and oversold. Yep. I marvel at the "Machine Learning AI ad algorithms" that try to sell me junk. I get 3 (three!) emails a day from aliexpress about stuff i already bought ... from aliexpress. Same thing with Amazon. I bought a, lets say "toaster" from amazon, and for the next 6 months every weird amazon ad on the wide internet and every time i hit the amazon home page it's trying to sell…
> But we're a good 25 years out from a truly autonomous, road-worthy, self-driving human transport.
It sounds like your reasoning goes like this: my interactions with things which are supposedly AI are bad. Self-driving cars are also some form of AI, therefore self-driving cars must be bad and or far away too.
Did I understood you right?
The problem with that logic is that there is nothing in common in implementation/architecture/incentives between the things you mention and self-driving technology.
Nobody, well nearly nobody, tries to implement self-driving cars in a blackbox “AI” fashion. What I mean is that we don’t just throw sensor data at a neural network, then squint and say “i recon it is going to drive well now”. That would be madness.
Most approaches break down the problem into sub-problems covered by sub-systems. The sub-systems are fed information with known error properties and engineered to the specifications. The failure modes are painstakingly traced through and documented. Then in turn assemblies of these subsystems and the whole are reasoned similarly. Fault trees are drawn, the operational domain is considered. The reasoning why the engineers think the system is safe and have the right redundancies in place is more complicated than the code itself.
Some of these sub-systems are implemented using what one would call “AI”. Particularly in the object recognition domain that seems to be the state of the art. But the failure modes and shortcomings of these systems are considered and reasoned about the same way you would do the same with a good old-fashioned kalman-filter based sub-system. It is known that they are going to fail in various situations in various ways. The trick is to engineer the whole system such that it still remains safe despite these sub-systems having these characteristics.
I’m not saying that we will have safe self-driving soon. What i’m saying is that you can’t reason about self-driving cars by saying “commercial entity X is spamming me with bad marketing crap. People talk about AI behind said marketing crap. Therefore self driving cars are far away.”
Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent
#13The run part: I think they're a young overseas resident who panicked. They returned and handed themselves in to police at the scene. A lot of younger foreigners have no idea what to do in an accident and in their home economy can face retribution, extortion, sometimes at the hands of police. In Australia, you stay, you help the victim, you report the accident. That's the law. In theory all drivers should know this bu…
> I think they're a young overseas resident who panicked. Ok, I need to call this out. Unless I missed something, there's nothing to suggest that the person involved is an overseas resident. > but you get a year on your homeland licence before having to sit a local road rules exam. P-plates suggests she's doing a local driving licence. If you area foreigner from quite a few countries you just show your existing drivi…
They're likely going on this, which in local media usually implies they're fleeing back to a home country: "Sakshi Agrawal has been granted conditional bail, despite police protesting she poses a flight risk."
And/or from another local article:
"The 23-year-old, who is on a bridging visa, was released on bail despite concerns from police prosecutors she could flee the country."
"The court heard that Ms Agrawal, whose driver’s licence had previously been suspended..."
Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent
#14The run part: I think they're a young overseas resident who panicked. They returned and handed themselves in to police at the scene. A lot of younger foreigners have no idea what to do in an accident and in their home economy can face retribution, extortion, sometimes at the hands of police. In Australia, you stay, you help the victim, you report the accident. That's the law. In theory all drivers should know this bu…
> I think they're a young overseas resident who panicked. Ok, I need to call this out. Unless I missed something, there's nothing to suggest that the person involved is an overseas resident. > but you get a year on your homeland licence before having to sit a local road rules exam. P-plates suggests she's doing a local driving licence. If you area foreigner from quite a few countries you just show your existing drivi…
You're right the linked article doesn't mention it.
If you search the drivers name and Tesla, other articles do claim that she is not a citizen or permanent resident of Australia and is there on a bridging visa.
Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent
#15Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think it's been misnamed and oversold. Yep. I marvel at the "Machine Learning AI ad algorithms" that try to sell me junk. I get 3 (three!) emails a day from aliexpress about stuff i already bought ... from aliexpress. Same thing with Amazon. I bought a, lets say "toaster" from amazon, and for the next 6 months every weird amazon ad on the wide internet and every time i hit the amazon home page it's trying to sell…
> But we're a good 25 years out from a truly autonomous, road-worthy, self-driving human transport. It sounds like your reasoning goes like this: my interactions with things which are supposedly AI are bad. Self-driving cars are also some form of AI, therefore self-driving cars must be bad and or far away too. Did I understood you right? The problem with that logic is that there is nothing in common in implementation…
>But the failure modes and shortcomings of these systems are considered and reasoned about the same way you would do the same with a good old-fashioned kalman-filter based sub-system.
My personal definition of what constitutes "AI" includes emergent behavior as a prerequisite. To lack emergence is to be a programmable logic controller.
Do these systems you're talking about exhibit emergence?
If so, how can you possibly reason about their failure modes?
Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent
#16I didn’t realize Autopilot disabled the vehicle’s brakes. This poor driver couldn’t stop even after the collision. Seems like a terrible design choice.
Autopilot does not disable vehicle brakes. In fact vehicle brakes immediately disables Autopilot. If they're actually claiming that they had no brakes then that makes it likely they're lying about using Autopilot at all.
Parent was being sarcastic :)
Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent
#17> A hit-and-run incident in Melbourne yesterday could set a legal precedent for the use of autonomous driving technologies in Australia. There is no precedent to be set. If you are behind the wheel of a car you are responsible for it's operation. 'Autopilot' or not. And hard to say it was the autopilot's fault for driving off and returning to the police station two hours later.
Well, Mercedes takes legal responsibility for its Autopilot, unlike Tesla.
Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent
#181. A driver who drove off after an accident claims they were using Autopilot at the time.
2. The road photographed in the article isn't a highway, and so I'm not sure it would be accepted by regular Autopilot.
3. Whilst FSD might accept that road, FSD isn't available in Australia.
I think the driver's claim that Autopilot was in use needs to be questioned.
Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent
#19The run part: I think they're a young overseas resident who panicked. They returned and handed themselves in to police at the scene. A lot of younger foreigners have no idea what to do in an accident and in their home economy can face retribution, extortion, sometimes at the hands of police. In Australia, you stay, you help the victim, you report the accident. That's the law. In theory all drivers should know this bu…
> I think they're a young overseas resident who panicked. Ok, I need to call this out. Unless I missed something, there's nothing to suggest that the person involved is an overseas resident. > but you get a year on your homeland licence before having to sit a local road rules exam. P-plates suggests she's doing a local driving licence. If you area foreigner from quite a few countries you just show your existing drivi…
> Ok, I need to call this out. Unless I missed something, there's nothing to suggest that the person involved is an overseas resident.
Just based on the picture I'd be pretty confident she is. I find it fairly easy to pick out young people from Asia who are recent immigrants based on their dress and hairstyles.
Re: Melbourne hit-and-run blamed on Tesla Autopilot, could set legal precedent
#20Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think they're a young overseas resident who panicked. Ok, I need to call this out. Unless I missed something, there's nothing to suggest that the person involved is an overseas resident. > but you get a year on your homeland licence before having to sit a local road rules exam. P-plates suggests she's doing a local driving licence. If you area foreigner from quite a few countries you just show your existing drivi…
> Ok, I need to call this out. Unless I missed something, there's nothing to suggest that the person involved is an overseas resident. Just based on the picture I'd be pretty confident she is. I find it fairly easy to pick out young people from Asia who are recent immigrants based on their dress and hairstyles.
> I find it fairly easy to pick out young people from Asia who are recent immigrants based on (...)
racial stereotypes. FTFY
Not sure what people find wrong about this. Yes, a fashion change in immigrants sure happens for many reasons. But going the other way - from "I see a person" to "she's a recent immigrant" is harmful stereotyping because you will be wrong. Doing that under a post going from "probably a recent immigrant" to "she probably did a hit-and-run because of driving culture and environment of where she's from" is just fuelling racial BS.