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Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

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Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#11

Post by jimbob45 »

waihtis wrote: post #3
rich_sasha wrote: post #2

The clear suggestion is that it is Russia doing it. Other than as an f-u, I don’t understand why they would though. If I have an effective weapon (GPS spoofer), surely I don’t want to alert the enemy to it, lest they develop defences. So eg say NATO were overreliant on GPS, incidents of spoofing like this will cause them to rethink and reduce that reliance, or harden the system.

Suggesting Russians are playing a rational game here? I think the cover has been pulled on the Russian "master strategy".. it's literally a hierarchy of terror and lies, where everyone will do whatever it takes to please the irrational autocrat. I have been spamming this lecture everywhere since the war started and again I think anyone who's still questioning the Russian operative reality should watch it: Evaluation…

This must be how the allies felt in 1939 wondering what Germany’s master plan could possibly have been. Of course, they couldn’t have foreseen Hitler being a bumbling buffoon all along.

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#13

Post by atoav »

waihtis wrote: post #3
rich_sasha wrote: post #2

The clear suggestion is that it is Russia doing it. Other than as an f-u, I don’t understand why they would though. If I have an effective weapon (GPS spoofer), surely I don’t want to alert the enemy to it, lest they develop defences. So eg say NATO were overreliant on GPS, incidents of spoofing like this will cause them to rethink and reduce that reliance, or harden the system.

Suggesting Russians are playing a rational game here? I think the cover has been pulled on the Russian "master strategy".. it's literally a hierarchy of terror and lies, where everyone will do whatever it takes to please the irrational autocrat. I have been spamming this lecture everywhere since the war started and again I think anyone who's still questioning the Russian operative reality should watch it: Evaluation…

I watched that evaluation yesterday and I think it is spot on and I second your recommendation. Many western officials (as most people) seem to be unable to put themselves into this different environment and framework of values. Knowing a lot about a country helps, but judging them by the values you'd have doesn't help you a bit.

Edit: Take the below with a grain of salt, this is one personal experience which can/should not be extrapolated from. There are good/bad people in all nations.

When I was 16 we were on vacation and played waterball in a pool against a russian family. When they realized we were winning (all members of my family were playing handball for life, so this was no wonder) they started to do things like pulling pants and punching underneath the water surface, scratching with the fingernails etc. They still lost.

Back then I could not understand why anyone would deploy such methods in a game during their vacation. For me personally, it would be entirely unpleasant and unenjoyable to envolve myself that much in a non-serious game. But maybe the answer is contained in that video: Maybe it is just much more normal to deploy the whole arsenal of what you can do in russian culture. I guess if you don't try everything and then loose you are seen as an idiot or as a weak person. I grew up in a culture where the rules of society are taken comparedly serious, so for me playing unfair is a sign of weakness (proof you cannot win by the rules).

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#14

Post by withinboredom »

Grimburger wrote: post #8
kube-system wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPS jamming is not a secret technology, it’s something that you can expect in a war zone and it’s a technology you can buy on aliexpress. GPS is actually a couple of different signals, and the general public gets the shitty one. The military has some additional protections and better receivers.

> The military has some additional protections Feel this is somewhat an understatement, it's cryptographically signed and encrypted, as far as protection goes it's wandering onto an active battlefield naked vs being in a modern tank.

Yeah, but that’s all worthless now. The US has lost the number of GPS satellites in the sky. It’s all Russian and EU sats now.

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#15

Post by sdoering »

waihtis wrote: post #3
rich_sasha wrote: post #2

The clear suggestion is that it is Russia doing it. Other than as an f-u, I don’t understand why they would though. If I have an effective weapon (GPS spoofer), surely I don’t want to alert the enemy to it, lest they develop defences. So eg say NATO were overreliant on GPS, incidents of spoofing like this will cause them to rethink and reduce that reliance, or harden the system.

Suggesting Russians are playing a rational game here? I think the cover has been pulled on the Russian "master strategy".. it's literally a hierarchy of terror and lies, where everyone will do whatever it takes to please the irrational autocrat. I have been spamming this lecture everywhere since the war started and again I think anyone who's still questioning the Russian operative reality should watch it: Evaluation…

You start by "suggesting Russians are playing a rational game..." but literally the next sentence is condescending western rhetoric.

We don't know the strategy and the plan. We might, even maybe reasonably, deduce that Russian leadership thought that Ucrain would fall more quickly. And that some form of stable solution would be the result.

But most people don't only have one plan to reach a longer term strategic goal. So thinking of "the Russians" as rational players (and taking a lot of potentially missing information into account due to every body only hearing their own side's propaganda) we could at least ask ourselves, if the plan was to overthrow the Ucrain quickly, to probably secure the Donbas and also probably secure the water resources for the Crimean peninsula as a strategic necessity, what course of action remains for Putin now that at least the quickness of the action failed. While there are already people reporting that Russia secured most of the Donbas and the water resources for the Crimean. But how much is propaganda there, I don't know.

So Putin needs to appear as the winner in the end. At least internally. He needs to sell this to his power base and his own ego as well probably.

The west wants/needs to see the Ucrain at least as partial winner. And the sanctions to have worked (because that was sold as solution to the voters).

Can there be a way to end the killing, save thousands of lives and reach these goals? I don't know. But I would be at least hesitant to call Putin irrational. Maybe that is valid if one defines the criteria of evaluation up front. What defines 'rational'. Because I suggest that within Putin's worldview these actions make some forms of sense to him and. As said. From the outside perspective it might be reasonable to call it irrational. But that might not help the world in finding a way out. For that one needs to understand why it makes sense to Putin to act the way he does right now.

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#17

Post by sdoering »

atoav wrote: post #13
waihtis wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suggesting Russians are playing a rational game here? I think the cover has been pulled on the Russian "master strategy".. it's literally a hierarchy of terror and lies, where everyone will do whatever it takes to please the irrational autocrat. I have been spamming this lecture everywhere since the war started and again I think anyone who's still questioning the Russian operative reality should watch it: Evaluation…

I watched that evaluation yesterday and I think it is spot on and I second your recommendation. Many western officials (as most people) seem to be unable to put themselves into this different environment and framework of values. Knowing a lot about a country helps, but judging them by the values you'd have doesn't help you a bit. Edit: Take the below with a grain of salt, this is one personal experience which can/sho…

Wow. When I was a kid I was on holiday playing together with Russians, Brits, Belgians and other German kids.

While the Russian kids were playing by the rules (at least not significantly outside of that) especially the British kiddos did everything they could to win the medals we received in these games from the hotel.

So what does my anecdata tell us? Nothing. I have great experiences with Russian people while I was cheated by Brits. Should I deduce all Russians are great people? Or all Brits are cheaters? Probably would be a bad idea.

There clearly are different cultures. But talking about that as if this means people a a homogenized blob of that culture does not pay justice to the people who went to the streets in Russia to protest against the war for example. Or to the people that only know the propaganda side of this war on any side.

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#18

Post by XorNot »

Grimburger wrote: post #8
kube-system wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GPS jamming is not a secret technology, it’s something that you can expect in a war zone and it’s a technology you can buy on aliexpress. GPS is actually a couple of different signals, and the general public gets the shitty one. The military has some additional protections and better receivers.

> The military has some additional protections Feel this is somewhat an understatement, it's cryptographically signed and encrypted, as far as protection goes it's wandering onto an active battlefield naked vs being in a modern tank.

It is, but the US basically can't use that mode anymore - the widespread use of GPS guided munitions which do not have the military grade receivers means the US basically doesn't enable the signal degradation mode ever - it harms their own force more then helping any counter-force.

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#19

Post by labster »

jimbob45 wrote: post #11
waihtis wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suggesting Russians are playing a rational game here? I think the cover has been pulled on the Russian "master strategy".. it's literally a hierarchy of terror and lies, where everyone will do whatever it takes to please the irrational autocrat. I have been spamming this lecture everywhere since the war started and again I think anyone who's still questioning the Russian operative reality should watch it: Evaluation…

This must be how the allies felt in 1939 wondering what Germany’s master plan could possibly have been. Of course, they couldn’t have foreseen Hitler being a bumbling buffoon all along.

Yeah, but Hitler had the Wehrmacht and all the competence there. Putin only has… whoever is responsible for that megaconvoy stalled for a week, in uncontrolled airspace.

Re: Finnish govt agency warns of unusual aircraft GPS interference

#20

Post by phplovesong »

rich_sasha wrote: post #2

The clear suggestion is that it is Russia doing it. Other than as an f-u, I don’t understand why they would though. If I have an effective weapon (GPS spoofer), surely I don’t want to alert the enemy to it, lest they develop defences. So eg say NATO were overreliant on GPS, incidents of spoofing like this will cause them to rethink and reduce that reliance, or harden the system.

They do this so more countries like Finland would join NATO. There is really no other reason.
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