The sunny side of firing someone • Hacker News Board

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#11

Post by ComradePhil » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 4:39 PM UTC

I wish for a day when if I have to fire someone, the organization that I am a part of has the combined advantage of insight, influence and capability to find alternatives for both the organization and the individual being fired.

I hope my organization has the insight to know where the person I am letting go would be a better fit in... and has the influence to recommend them there inside the organization or another one.

If the fired person is fit for no place of work in the or circle of influence in the current state of the organization, I hope we would still be able to provide support for them while giving them the opportunity to still engage in the orgaznization until they find an alternative... or find a useful opportunity inside when things change or when they they change i.e. acquire the skills that may be more useful to the organization.

I don't know how this can be made possible... i.e. what the organizational values that will be required to be able to achieve this while still being sustainable... or if government involvement is required and how can organizations fund tho government programs through taxes.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#12

Post by acrooks » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 4:41 PM UTC

propter_hoc wrote: post #10

This is a fairly terrible article. As anyone who's run a business knows, sometimes you have to let someone go not because you're in economic trouble, or because they're an axe murderer, but just because they're not the right leader for their position. It's not so much "summarily fired for poor performance" as "wrong person for the moment".

It’s a terrible article because, despite explaining many scenarios well, it missed one example?

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#13

Post by ptero » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 4:47 PM UTC

mgomez wrote: post #9

> Bob did well on our interviews and was hired as a software developer in charge of infrastructure components. But it soon became apparent that his development habits were very heavily biased towards the hacking end of the spectrum. I'm primarily a self-taught developer. Can anyone recommend some resources (e.g., books about professional software engineering practices) so that I don't end up like Bob?

There are plenty of good books, but IMO the problem with Bob (and the thing to keep in mind not to become one) is that when the company tried to help him, he not only resisted, but effectively sabotaged this.

Books are good, but if you are new at the company or do not know how it works, find a few more senior folks who are doing well and ask them for advice. Run your architecture / solutions past them, ask for opinions, etc.

I think a vast majority of folks fired like Bob just did not listen to strong, non-subtle signals from the company trying to prevent the firing. My 2c.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#14

Post by mtlynch » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 4:52 PM UTC

mgomez wrote: post #9

> Bob did well on our interviews and was hired as a software developer in charge of infrastructure components. But it soon became apparent that his development habits were very heavily biased towards the hacking end of the spectrum. I'm primarily a self-taught developer. Can anyone recommend some resources (e.g., books about professional software engineering practices) so that I don't end up like Bob?

I like Code Complete by Steve McConnell. It was popular at Microsoft when I worked there in the late 2000s.

I re-skimmed it recently, and it still held up, but the advice has influenced a lot of other writers so it may not feel as profound as it was then, but I think it's sound advice in terms of software craftsmanship.

It's also worth noting that Code Complete biases toward processes that work for a large company where there's lots of cross-team collaboration. The advice is good in general, but you should weigh certain parts less if you're working on a smaller company and especially a fast-moving startup.

Also Joel Spolsky's blog is fantastic.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#15

Post by aevernon » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 4:53 PM UTC

mgomez wrote: post #9

> Bob did well on our interviews and was hired as a software developer in charge of infrastructure components. But it soon became apparent that his development habits were very heavily biased towards the hacking end of the spectrum. I'm primarily a self-taught developer. Can anyone recommend some resources (e.g., books about professional software engineering practices) so that I don't end up like Bob?

"Bob"'s problem was counterproductive pride and being unteachable. There is no room for ego in a precise profession like ours, and none of us writes perfect code. If "Bob" had learned from his peers during code reviews, he would have been fine.

To answer your question: The Pragmatic Programmer by David Thomas and Andrew Hunt, Writing Solid Code by Steve Maguire, and Code Complete by Steve McConnell.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#16

Post by higeorge13 » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

I think the article misses the case that the manager is just an unprofessional idiot and fires someone (or usually more than one) just because he doesn’t like them.

I have seen in the past. They fired promising engineers out of the blue (no negative feedback until then) and for completely random and unprofessional reasons given, e.g. we think you don’t like us.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#17

Post by dccoolgai » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 4:56 PM UTC

I was in "position 3" about a year-and-a-half ago. I got over the shame / self-worth issues, but honestly there were a couple of betrayal-of-friendship issues from people I considered pretty close friends where it came out that what they were saying to management and each other wasn't what they were saying to me. I even asked on a couple occasions to sit down and tell me what I could do better... Got a huge pay increase and a happier job now, so it's not a sob story, but the friendship thing still stings.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#18

Post by propter_hoc » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

acrooks wrote: post #12

propter_hoc wrote: post #10

This is a fairly terrible article. As anyone who's run a business knows, sometimes you have to let someone go not because you're in economic trouble, or because they're an axe murderer, but just because they're not the right leader for their position. It's not so much "summarily fired for poor performance" as "wrong person for the moment".

It’s a terrible article because, despite explaining many scenarios well, it missed one example?

By far the most common though, and the one in which you're most likely to need advice.

Publishing an article about firing and only talking about cases where someone went to jail for assaulting his wife, or where the company is about to run out of money, is not exactly helpful to the founder agonizing over what to do about his head of marketing who isn't scaling effectively.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#19

Post by acrooks » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:10 PM UTC

propter_hoc wrote: post #18

acrooks wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a terrible article because, despite explaining many scenarios well, it missed one example?

By far the most common though, and the one in which you're most likely to need advice. Publishing an article about firing and only talking about cases where someone went to jail for assaulting his wife, or where the company is about to run out of money, is not exactly helpful to the founder agonizing over what to do about his head of marketing who isn't scaling effectively.

I agree that is a very common scenario in general, and I have seen it happen myself many times. But intro mentioned that the scope of the article was about firing engineers.

> Now we move on to a completely different topic, and maybe not the most pleasant one: about when engineers get fired.

So in context of the article’s purpose I think it is a fair representation - I very rarely see firings related to “wrong person for the moment” for engineers. But I very commonly do see firings for poor performance in engineering which, as the industry’s overzealous interview practices may suggest, is difficult to discern in an interview.

Even if you disagree with my perspective, I do still think you do yourself a disservice by jumping to the hyperbolic “it’s terrible” instead of writing your feedback in a more constructive manner, like you did in this subsequent comment.

Re: The sunny side of firing someone

#20

Post by cryptica » Sat, Mar 12, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

I wish that getting fired would not carry so much stigma as it does today. I got fired 3 times in my early career. 2 of those times I believe were completely unfair, only 1 time made sense because I had burned out and lost motivation (also, the company wasn't doing well financially). In all of these cases, getting fired was a valuable life experience.

The 2 times which were unfair, I learned that people can be unjust, spiteful and irrational; I learned to recognize and avoid working for such people later in my career.

The time when I got fired after burning out, I learned to be more attuned to my own feelings and to never allow myself work on something that I don't enjoy. It made me more selective about opportunities.

Tellingly, none of the places I got fired from ended up succeeding... On the other hand, one of the startups which I spent the most years working for is doing quite well.

Every time you get fired, you can learn something important; maybe you were overly ambitious and your skills don't yet measure up to the role or you made a poor choice when it came to company selection.

Getting fired can mean a lot of things, not only negative things. Aiming high can be seen as a positive attribute. Being willing to step outside of your comfort zone can also be seen as a positive (even if it didn't work out). I always learned a lot, even if sometimes I was learning by counter-example; by observing other people's mistakes as well as my own.

Also, people need to feel pressure in their lives. We need to learn how to fall and how to get back up. It's OK to fall. It's good to assert yourself and take risks, even if it means putting yourself in the firing line.