Live data from Hacker News

An Investigation of the Facts Behind Columbia's U.S. News Ranking

math.columbia.edu

11–20 of 52 posts

Re: An Investigation of the Facts Behind Columbia's U.S. News Ranking

#11
post #8
post #7

I hope he has tenure. :)

He is a full professor and this article, although critical of Columbia's push to improve its ranking, is dry and lacks hot-button topics.

The article comes as close as possible to accusing Columbia of fraud without outright saying it. I hardly think that's dry.

Re: An Investigation of the Facts Behind Columbia's U.S. News Ranking

#13
General rankings have limited use. The value of data depends on the interests of the reader, which for college 'rankings' vary widely. For example, if you are interested only in the status of your college degree among the public, then the ranking itself over time and the credibility of US News are probably most valuable, regardless of how they are calculated. But if you are interested in the status of your degree within academia then the 'peer assessment survey' seems most important. Your interests and thus the value of different data will vary by what you want to do (study? work? donate? evaluate research? hire researchers or teachers?), what field(s) you are interested in and at what level, how you learn/work, etc. For many people, the 'ranking' might rely almost completely on one department or just a few specific faculty members.

The US News & World Report's ranking system apparently depends (at least in part) on class size (8% of ranking), proportion of faculty with terminal degrees (3% of ranking), proportion of faculty who are full-time (1% of ranking), student-faculty ratio (1%), financial resources per student (10%), retention and graduation rates (35%), student debt (5%), and "'peer assessment survey' [20%] in which college presidents, provosts, and admissions deans are asked to rate other institutions."

All that data can be valuable but says little directly about the quality of education received by students or the quality of research, though the latter might be outside USN's scope. Sometimes, objectivity is a distraction because the objective data is too limited to inform us. For example, objective data about a play - number of words, etc. - doesn't tell you much about it.

In those cases, expert judgment is an excellent tool and I think USN's 'peer assessment survey' is the right approach for many purposes, but USN surveys people with narrow knowlede - administrators, including admissions officers.

I might look at Times Higher Education, which performs a 'reputation survey' that asks (IIRC) thousands of published, tenured faculty about the quality of other schools' departments in their field of expertise. These are people with expertise and significant access, though of course their understanding of the student's perspective will be limited. (Columbia rates around 10th, IIRC.)

Re: An Investigation of the Facts Behind Columbia's U.S. News Ranking

#14
For the TLDR people:

“ In each previous section, what was at issue was a discrepancy between two figures, both obtained from data provided by Columbia. Regarding class sizes, the information provided to U.S. News conflicts with the information in the Directory of Classes. Regarding terminal degrees, the information provided to U.S. News conflicts with the information in the Columbia College Bulletin. Regarding full-time faculty, the information provided to U.S. News conflicts with the information provided to the Department of Education. And so on.”

The big conclusions are that Columbia seems to be providing inaccurate data, and that one of the outcomes of chasing rankings are that transfer students end up as second class students, at least at Columbia.

I think it’s a data driven case of how elite universities can perpetuate a system of reduced social mobility. For Columbia, the objectively more poor transfer students support the more wealthy non-transfer students, and the graduation rate shows that disparity.

Re: An Investigation of the Facts Behind Columbia's U.S. News Ranking

#15
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is a full professor and this article, although critical of Columbia's push to improve its ranking, is dry and lacks hot-button topics.

The article comes as close as possible to accusing Columbia of fraud without outright saying it. I hardly think that's dry.

Not only are they apparently lying to US News, they appear to be running a scheme of enrolling an unusually high amount of transfer students (who are not counted in the US News graduation rates) for the purpose of soaking them for tuition revenue.

Per the article, transfers get much less financial aid than non-transfers at Columbia and also have much lower graduation rates, which is the opposite of what is seen at other schools with large transfer populations like in the UC system.

Prof. Thaddeus is very courageous for bringing these facts to light, and/or has a deep love for his university that he feels is being corrupted by their pursuit of a higher ranking.

Re: An Investigation of the Facts Behind Columbia's U.S. News Ranking

#16

This is an amazing takedown by one of Columbia’s own professors. Wow

[flagged]

For a TLDR, skip to the conclusion section.

Generally for a paper if you don't actually care to see the author back up their arguments (which is not a great way of fully ingesting a paper, but lots of things don't need to be fully ingested) you can just read the intro and the conclusion.

> §8: CONCLUSION

> No one should try to reform or rehabilitate the ranking. It is irredeemable. In Colin Diver’s memorable formulation, “Trying to rank institutions of higher education is a little like trying to rank religions or philosophies. The entire enterprise is flawed, not only in detail but also in conception.”

Got to appreciate an essayist who'll enter the conclusion section guns a'blazing.

Re: An Investigation of the Facts Behind Columbia's U.S. News Ranking

#17

This is an amazing takedown by one of Columbia’s own professors. Wow

I can't speak for the math department, but I've noticed that there are general contentions between Columbia's faculty and administration that seem somewhat unique to the school. Professor Martin Chalfie has noted how cramped and run-down his lab is in an interview, which seems like soft-spoken criticism at the way Columbia has failed to use its enormous endowment towards acquiring more research and teaching spaces.

Perhaps someone at Harvard or MIT can chime in with whether such contentions exist outside of Columbia, but I'm not too surprised to see a professor criticize the school for somewhat blatant wrongdoing.

Re: An Investigation of the Facts Behind Columbia's U.S. News Ranking

#18
post #14

For the TLDR people: “ In each previous section, what was at issue was a discrepancy between two figures, both obtained from data provided by Columbia. Regarding class sizes, the information provided to U.S. News conflicts with the information in the Directory of Classes. Regarding terminal degrees, the information provided to U.S. News conflicts with the information in the Columbia College Bulletin. Regarding full-t…

> one of the outcomes of chasing rankings are that transfer students end up as second class students, at least at Columbia.

Interesting — when I was in law school, transfer students benefitted from the fact that they avoided our harsh first-year grading curves (20% A's, 60% B's, and 20% C's). The curve for second- and third-year classes was much more lenient, and it was relatively easy to get a 3.5 average during those years.

As a result, the transfer students disproportionately ended up with the highest GPAs, which seemed unfair to those of us who were there all 3 years.

Re: An Investigation of the Facts Behind Columbia's U.S. News Ranking

#19

This is an amazing takedown by one of Columbia’s own professors. Wow

[flagged]

For an academic paper, it was really easy to read, and I say that as someone who has noticed that my own attention span has become alarmingly short.

Re: An Investigation of the Facts Behind Columbia's U.S. News Ranking

#20

This is an amazing takedown by one of Columbia’s own professors. Wow

I can't speak for the math department, but I've noticed that there are general contentions between Columbia's faculty and administration that seem somewhat unique to the school. Professor Martin Chalfie has noted how cramped and run-down his lab is in an interview, which seems like soft-spoken criticism at the way Columbia has failed to use its enormous endowment towards acquiring more research and teaching spaces. P…

I can tell you that the student body at MIT generally had a pretty dim view of the admins when I was there, always trying to kill the things that make MIT an amazing place, while building stupidly overpriced vanity buildings. Not to mention the incredibly shameful way they handled the Aaron Swartz case.
Post reply on HN