Why class societies are the rule, not the exception • Hacker News Board

Re: Why class societies are the rule, not the exception

#11

Post by danssig » Thu, Sep 29, 2011, 11:31 AM UTC

temphn wrote: post #8

yzhengyu wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

News at eleven, "Horatio Alger myth continues to appeal to fairness bias", "Middle class continue to toil under the mindset that they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires". Raw numbers collected over decades of research disprove this handily. While working hard is a factor, there are other phenomena which will just as easily impair upwards social mobility. There's a reason they call it "poverty trap" For an intro…

Malcom "igon value" Gladwell is probably not the person one wants to cite on an empirical or technical matter. http://monkeysuncle.stanford.edu/?p=541 Pinker’s term: “The Igon Value Problem” is a clever play on the Eigenvalue Problem in mathematics. You see, Gladwell apparently quotes someone referring to an “igon value.” This is clearly a concept he never dealt with himself even though it is a ubiquitous tool in the…

>There is just no dispute that smart people working hard can put a few million in the bank after several years of all out toil in the Valley.

This statement is either utterly nonsensical and backed up by nothing or it's circular in nature (i.e. "How do you know they're hard working and smart? Because they put a few million in the bank", "Why were they able to put a few million in the bank? Because they're hard working and smart").

Re: Why class societies are the rule, not the exception

#12

Post by irrumator » Thu, Sep 29, 2011, 11:49 AM UTC

danssig wrote: post #10

Husafan wrote: post #2

Also, some people work harder than others.

Are you actually under the ridiculously naive impression that hard work = success? I thought that had been satisfactorily disproven years ago.

That's a pretty strong statement without any proof to back it up. What is this satisfactory proof that this "has been disproved years ago"?

Re: Why class societies are the rule, not the exception

#13

Post by rsheridan6 » Thu, Sep 29, 2011, 11:59 AM UTC

temphn wrote: post #8

yzhengyu wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

News at eleven, "Horatio Alger myth continues to appeal to fairness bias", "Middle class continue to toil under the mindset that they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires". Raw numbers collected over decades of research disprove this handily. While working hard is a factor, there are other phenomena which will just as easily impair upwards social mobility. There's a reason they call it "poverty trap" For an intro…

Malcom "igon value" Gladwell is probably not the person one wants to cite on an empirical or technical matter. http://monkeysuncle.stanford.edu/?p=541 Pinker’s term: “The Igon Value Problem” is a clever play on the Eigenvalue Problem in mathematics. You see, Gladwell apparently quotes someone referring to an “igon value.” This is clearly a concept he never dealt with himself even though it is a ubiquitous tool in the…

Not that I'm a fan of Gladwell in any respect, but his gaffe shows that he never took linear algebra, which is true of almost everybody who didn't go into hard science or engineering.

Re: Why class societies are the rule, not the exception

#14

Post by marbletiles » Thu, Sep 29, 2011, 12:04 PM UTC

temphn wrote: post #8

yzhengyu wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

News at eleven, "Horatio Alger myth continues to appeal to fairness bias", "Middle class continue to toil under the mindset that they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires". Raw numbers collected over decades of research disprove this handily. While working hard is a factor, there are other phenomena which will just as easily impair upwards social mobility. There's a reason they call it "poverty trap" For an intro…

Malcom "igon value" Gladwell is probably not the person one wants to cite on an empirical or technical matter. http://monkeysuncle.stanford.edu/?p=541 Pinker’s term: “The Igon Value Problem” is a clever play on the Eigenvalue Problem in mathematics. You see, Gladwell apparently quotes someone referring to an “igon value.” This is clearly a concept he never dealt with himself even though it is a ubiquitous tool in the…

"in the valley" suggests that geography matters as much as the smarts and the hard work. What other assumptions have you missed?

Re: Why class societies are the rule, not the exception

#15

Post by wazoox » Thu, Sep 29, 2011, 12:12 PM UTC

irrumator wrote: post #12

danssig wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you actually under the ridiculously naive impression that hard work = success? I thought that had been satisfactorily disproven years ago.

That's a pretty strong statement without any proof to back it up. What is this satisfactory proof that this "has been disproved years ago"?

For instance, academic success is about 60% socio-economical background, 15% professors, which lets only 25% to individual variation. Similar data can be found in many domains, like the importance of geography on a country economic success, etc.

Re: Why class societies are the rule, not the exception

#16

Post by irrumator » Thu, Sep 29, 2011, 12:30 PM UTC

wazoox wrote: post #15

irrumator wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty strong statement without any proof to back it up. What is this satisfactory proof that this "has been disproved years ago"?

For instance, academic success is about 60% socio-economical background, 15% professors, which lets only 25% to individual variation. Similar data can be found in many domains, like the importance of geography on a country economic success, etc.

--wazoox, 2011. I guess these are more 'facts' out of the sky.

Re: Why class societies are the rule, not the exception

#17

Post by danssig » Thu, Sep 29, 2011, 1:09 PM UTC

irrumator wrote: post #12

danssig wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you actually under the ridiculously naive impression that hard work = success? I thought that had been satisfactorily disproven years ago.

That's a pretty strong statement without any proof to back it up. What is this satisfactory proof that this "has been disproved years ago"?

No, I didn't drop a link farm because I figured most people would already knew this. I mean, it doesn't even pass the common sense test: if hard work = success why aren't most, say, Mexican immigrants loaded?

I suppose it depends on what you mean by success. But by the most common definitions (e.g. being rich) hard work isn't the main factor or even required at all (e.g. inherit millions from your parents requires how much effort? Basically not dying).

I watched my dad hold down two jobs and come home and work into the night providing his family with the things we needed. The first career job I had made more than he's ever made in his life and that job was mostly standing around.

Sadly, how we really wish things were has nothing to do with how they actually are.

Re: Why class societies are the rule, not the exception

#18

Post by vidarh » Thu, Sep 29, 2011, 1:26 PM UTC

marbletiles wrote: post #14

temphn wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Malcom "igon value" Gladwell is probably not the person one wants to cite on an empirical or technical matter. http://monkeysuncle.stanford.edu/?p=541 Pinker’s term: “The Igon Value Problem” is a clever play on the Eigenvalue Problem in mathematics. You see, Gladwell apparently quotes someone referring to an “igon value.” This is clearly a concept he never dealt with himself even though it is a ubiquitous tool in the…

"in the valley" suggests that geography matters as much as the smarts and the hard work. What other assumptions have you missed?

He's ridiculing the people who holds the blind belief in the valley startup as a sure way to wealth, not promoting it.

Re: Why class societies are the rule, not the exception

#19

Post by bluekeybox » Thu, Sep 29, 2011, 1:32 PM UTC

danssig wrote: post #10

Husafan wrote: post #2

Also, some people work harder than others.

Are you actually under the ridiculously naive impression that hard work = success? I thought that had been satisfactorily disproven years ago.

Thinking smart is a part of working hard. When we say work, we mean something that provides value, not something that requires a lot of physical effort.

I can "work" very hard pushing stones uphill like Sisyphus, and I probably won't get rich as a result.

A major reason why inequality exists is because the work ethic required for long-term thinking and planning is a model of behavior which children acquire from their parents through learning, observation, and imitation. Children from families where parents do not consider long-term goals worthy of pursuit are hugely disadvantaged.

Re: Why class societies are the rule, not the exception

#20

Post by zeteo » Thu, Sep 29, 2011, 3:20 PM UTC

Here's the paper:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjourna...

The crucial idea:

> Our simulation results support the hypothesis that socioeconomic stratification may have spread due to its effects on the demography of small groups—i.e. by demic diffusion—rather than cultural adoption. [...] In variable environments, stratified groups migrate more and are less likely to go extinct than egalitarian groups.

The main contribution of the paper seems to be the identification of a survival advantage for unequal societies in unstable environments.

To make this more concrete, imagine two neighboring villages A and B, hit by a catastrophic crop failure that has reduced harvest by 50%. In village A, there is a strong ethos of equality; the dwindled resources are divided equally, and basically midway through winter everyone dies of starvation.

In village B, the inhabitants strongly believe, on the contrary, that tradition (gods, spirits, ancestor cults etc.) orders the elevation of some above the others. The favored individuals get their normal full share of the reduced harvest, and the un-favored get none. This results into an immediate 50% mortality; but the favored survive through the full winter.

After a series of adequate harvests, the B population increases enough to split off a migrating group that takes over the (now abandoned) site of village A. The ethos of inequality is taken with them, and thus spreads at the expense of egalitarianism.