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Designing Olympic sports for the spectator

ideas.4brad.com

11–20 of 28 posts

Re: Designing Olympic sports for the spectator

#11
oh boy, glad to see those thoughts are on HN, but it barely scratched the surface of the problem. It's a special topic of interest for me, as I'm currently trying to reform sports in my country (figure skating in particular) and involved with number of projects (software and hardware) for sports.

The main point I want to praise this article for is that sport should be designed. Most sport are not, they just emerged from free play activities and for the last 70+ years are mostly being changed reactively as a response to professionalization, tragic events and TV requirements (as TV rights are the major source of revenue for many international federations).

There is no book or theory on how to design the sport. How to choose tradeoffs to satisfy different stakeholders. The closest thing I could find is actually body of knowledge from computer game designers – how to keep users engaged, how to ensure the incentive structure is aligned, how to fit into requirements of the game/tournaments etc. Because of this I suspect eSports will outperform many traditional sports soon in terms of member base by a lot.

In traditional sport if you want to know how a smallest change in rules will alter the whole game – you out of luck. The only way is just to push hard for the change and watch. Here is a great read about cascading changes in hockey provoked by tiny changes of the equipment regulations. [1] Or how suboptimal incentive structure in Badminton tournament resulted in weird incentives to loose [2]

But sports officials and decision makers are often ex-athletes themselves. They carry too much burden of attachement to particular styles or traditions, and very few are trained in system design or math or economics. Sports industry is very conservative.

Take athletics pole vault mentioned in the article. How does it differ from long jump? Long and high jump/pole vault are jumps and the goal is find "the best jumper". But historically it was easy to measure distance and hard to measure height. So high jump/pole vault uses this progressive system, and long jump does not. Why? Tradition, even though progressive system is suboptimal, because athlete becomes more and more tired towards increasing the height (and doesn't show their true best). Also the winner is always the one who failed last, which is a bit disappointing but might be more engaging for the audience.

I'm not even starting with figure skating judging. In a 100 years it moved from literally voting for style to measuring individual elements. The problem is that for measuring it uses biological sensors called "humans". As with many imperfect sensors they use sensor fusion approaches (7-9 judges in a row + trimmed mean), but the nature of the error and bias still makes a lot of room for subjective judging and building coalitions (especially from judges in ex-Soviet bloc). Japanese IceScope system is one step forward to start augmenting judges with objective numbers but it's really primitive (2 4K cameras measuring skaters' jump as a pixel movement and only can assess length and speed of a jump). Olympics used FreeD system, which is impressive but way out of price range for most federations in the world.

Anyway, this topic is huge. Would be grateful for any links or papers that you think might be relevant to sports design.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2021/02/hockey-g... [2] https://agtb.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/olympic-badminton-is-n...

Re: Designing Olympic sports for the spectator

#12
post #6

> Every single sport can be watched on Peacock, which is free to me and only $5/month for people without Comcast. Something like this exists in most countries. However, what you watch has forced commercial breaks -- and if you fast forward over a large section past a commercial break you must watch it -- and you can't really fast forward, only seek around. Dude, pay the $10 for one month for ad-free Peacock. It's wor…

Yes, but it's pretty lame that they substitute a static screen that lasts as long as the ads in the place of the ads. It would be much nicer if they excised them.

Re: Designing Olympic sports for the spectator

#13

These are from the same section of the post: > As noted above, I am not a fan of judged sports. While they are not going away, I think there could be merit in moving towards computer judging -- ie. like the clock -- for many of them. > One of the tragedies of sports like figure skating is that because people are pushed to the limit of what they can do, the winner ends up being the one who didn't fall. In a contest be…

The real tragedy of figure skating is that there is no figure skating anymore. It's called "figure skating" because the primary skill was "skating" and skaters were drawing "figures". It was called "compulsory figures" and it was a big part of competition. The fraction of overall score for figures has changed from 60% to 40% and then to 0% (in 1990). While "free skating" part became mostly a competition of the jumps.

The problem with jumps is that it discrimnates heavily by body type, while "figure skating" does not. I mean in compulsory figures the one who practiced longer and better wins. In jumps – the one who has smaller body wins. Kamila Valieva at age 20 will be 5 years more experienced and stronger than Kamila Valieva at age 15, and as much as talented, but she will not have a slightest chance to win herself at 15. How does it even make sense to people?

To rotate 4*360 degrees in 0.6 seconds you really benefit from smaller sum of radiuses of mass distribution. This is how female figure skating became competition of 15 pre-puberty girls.

With this overfocus on number of rotations, international figure skating losing fans and members like crazy. Arenas are half empty even on major competitions and international federation is wondering why revenues are plummeting.

But the tragedy is even deeper. Most older coaches in many countries are still from the generation who did "compulsory figures". They remember it, they remember how to teach the basics, although rarely do because everyone wants jumps as instructed by ISU rules. But new generation of coaches don't even know about figures, let alone how to tech them. And the older coaches already, you know, are dying. And we losing this knowledge. We're loosing roots of figure skating as a community.

But figures are instrumental part of figure skating, and really important to perform jumps efficiently.

Re: Designing Olympic sports for the spectator

#14
post #6

> Every single sport can be watched on Peacock, which is free to me and only $5/month for people without Comcast. Something like this exists in most countries. However, what you watch has forced commercial breaks -- and if you fast forward over a large section past a commercial break you must watch it -- and you can't really fast forward, only seek around. Dude, pay the $10 for one month for ad-free Peacock. It's wor…

[deleted]

Re: Designing Olympic sports for the spectator

#15
post #12
post #6

> Every single sport can be watched on Peacock, which is free to me and only $5/month for people without Comcast. Something like this exists in most countries. However, what you watch has forced commercial breaks -- and if you fast forward over a large section past a commercial break you must watch it -- and you can't really fast forward, only seek around. Dude, pay the $10 for one month for ad-free Peacock. It's wor…

Yes, but it's pretty lame that they substitute a static screen that lasts as long as the ads in the place of the ads. It would be much nicer if they excised them.

Ooof and the ones that do this coupled with some usually-obnoxious but always-repeating song deserve a special place in hell. I was so pleasantly surprised when I got YouTube TV when some ad-less spots were just substituted by a tranquil nature scene (a movie clip, so you were still sure that it wasn't frozen) and no music at all.

Re: Designing Olympic sports for the spectator

#16
before they start designing sports for the spectator, they should at least start designing the broadcast for the spectator. trying to watch the mens 5000m speedskating relay the other night was a frustrating experience - find the speedskating broadcast, and then somewhere in the middle of a 3hr video was the event i wanted to see. the only way to watch was to scrub around the video until i found it.

and maybe other broadcasters are doing a better job of surfacing things than CBC is, but as a canadian i'm restricted to only CBC's format, if a friend in another country shares a clip with me i can't watch it.

Re: Designing Olympic sports for the spectator

#17
post #9

In the early 2000's, when I was quite involved in UK Skydiving - there was quite a strong bid to try and get it recognised as an Olympic sport. However, the bid was denied and my understanding to the reasoning being that it wasn't a good spectator sport. However, I believe indoor skydiving is making good progress with their latest bid.

“What do you in think about skydiving?”

IOC: “too boring, viewers won’t want to watch that.”

“What about skydiving without a parachute?”

IOC: “Now that’s worth watching!”

Re: Designing Olympic sports for the spectator

#18
I have to say, watching the 2022 Winter Olympics using the Peacock app has been awesome. Being able to watch the events I want to watch, as opposed to being forced to watch the events broadcast producers decided to air has been great. Not being forced to watch background pieces has also been great. Being able to choose whether to watch the live event, or watching it later when I have time, has also been great.

It's basically what I always wanted when spectating the Olympics. I can choose to watch the practice runs for the alpine downhill. Somebody else, in the same house even, can watch figure skating for days. It's like we're living in the future!

Re: Designing Olympic sports for the spectator

#19
post #11

oh boy, glad to see those thoughts are on HN, but it barely scratched the surface of the problem. It's a special topic of interest for me, as I'm currently trying to reform sports in my country (figure skating in particular) and involved with number of projects (software and hardware) for sports. The main point I want to praise this article for is that sport should be designed. Most sport are not, they just emerged f…

While computer camera/laser judged pole vault/high jump would certainly be possible, and much quicker, they would be different in that the visible bar clearly creates a target in the mind of the athlete. It also has the advantage I talked about -- the spectator can immediately see, with no clock, judge or computer to aid them, if they cleared the bar.

As I wrote, not all sports should be for the spectator. But if the purpose of the competition is to be watched, as is the case in the Olympics, that is what to design for.

Re: Designing Olympic sports for the spectator

#20
Nice to see this show up on HN. I wrote an addendum, not in that post...

Olympic rant #2: Fake "team" events. We now see a lot of events promoted as team events where the team members need never have practiced together and don't even meet each other at the venue necessarily. These are team events where just add the scores of various competitors, or "relays" where there is no baton, nobody touches. Sadly to me, this has become a common form for mixed events. I have been wanting to see more mixed events, but I wanted to see mixed events where the men and women actually work together, like pairs skating or mixed doubles tennis or curling.

It's very easy to make a mixed team event in a real team sport. You can make a rule like "3 men and 3 women on the ice."

I understand that in some sports, like swimming, you can't have a baton, but it would be nice if they had to touch or something. In the downhill sports they can't easily physically meet. Mixed team snowboard cross had the man set a time, and that controlled when the woman was let out of the gate (later.) But all this is better than the sports where you just add scores and they aren't really a team at all. These events are just an excuse for nationalism. They will always be won by big countries which have the size and budget to send a group of high level athletes good enough to get the best average score.

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