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The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

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Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#11

Post by temprature »

aspyct wrote: post #7

I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. I've been using various unices for about 20 years now, ranging from Slackware Linux to OpenSolaris to FreeBSD to Kubuntu. I gave openbsd a try a few years back, and found it utterly complicated to setup and use. And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm". No joke, one of the guys sa…

Do you have examples of what in OpenBSD you found "utterly complicated to setup and use"? I've been using for several years now because of how devoid of complexity it is and because of how comprehensive the documentation is. Trying to even install other Unices nowadays frustrates me to no end because they're more complicated than "just keep pressing enter".

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#12

Post by implements »

temprature wrote: post #11
aspyct wrote: post #7

I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. I've been using various unices for about 20 years now, ranging from Slackware Linux to OpenSolaris to FreeBSD to Kubuntu. I gave openbsd a try a few years back, and found it utterly complicated to setup and use. And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm". No joke, one of the guys sa…

Do you have examples of what in OpenBSD you found "utterly complicated to setup and use"? I've been using for several years now because of how devoid of complexity it is and because of how comprehensive the documentation is. Trying to even install other Unices nowadays frustrates me to no end because they're more complicated than "just keep pressing enter".

The first time I installed OpenBSD I didn't know what to enter as "host name", nor that I needed to make a hosts file entry for whatever I chose.

Another example might be when startx stopped working for non-root users - a "change / why / what to do now" explanation would have been handy.

But OpenBSD isn't aimed at Unix newbies so it's entirely understandable why that level of hand-holding doesn't exist.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#13

Post by daneel_w »

aspyct wrote: post #7

I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. I've been using various unices for about 20 years now, ranging from Slackware Linux to OpenSolaris to FreeBSD to Kubuntu. I gave openbsd a try a few years back, and found it utterly complicated to setup and use. And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm". No joke, one of the guys sa…

I think you're overreacting and exaggerating, both regarding OpenBSD being complicated to set up and about the community being toxic.

Yes, a certain few people on the official mailing lists can be a bit vocal and stingy, and that also goes for one or two asocial a**holes on the inofficial IRC channel (#openbsd/libera), but these people are few and by no means representative of the community. For the absolute majority of occasions, people seeking help on these two venues are met with generous and thorough reciprocation.

If you've used unices for 20 years, and in particular if you've installed the Slackware of old, I cannot imagine why you would feel OpenBSD is complicated to set up. It's technically the neatest, tidiest and least convoluted of the UNIX-likes out there, coupled with the best documentation available. Could it be that you approached it as if it were a "Linux-like"? I see this regularly with new users asking for help in #openbsd/libera, trying OpenBSD out with a bit of Linux in their backpack resulting in some common and entirely logical misconceptions.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#14

Post by mrweasel »

implements wrote: post #12
temprature wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have examples of what in OpenBSD you found "utterly complicated to setup and use"? I've been using for several years now because of how devoid of complexity it is and because of how comprehensive the documentation is. Trying to even install other Unices nowadays frustrates me to no end because they're more complicated than "just keep pressing enter".

The first time I installed OpenBSD I didn't know what to enter as "host name", nor that I needed to make a hosts file entry for whatever I chose. Another example might be when startx stopped working for non-root users - a "change / why / what to do now" explanation would have been handy. But OpenBSD isn't aimed at Unix newbies so it's entirely understandable why that level of hand-holding doesn't exist.

Non of those things are OpenBSD specific, though I’m not sure what the hosts file thing is about.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#15

Post by daneel_w »

nix23 wrote: post #4

My biggest problem with OpenBSD is the partitioning, do i want security? Then i need partitions with w^x but how big should they be without wasting to much space. I think OpenBSD would greatly benefit from stuff like zfs-filesystems or btrfs sub-partitions...and NO i don't say OpenBSD needs ZFS, just a more flexible partition mechanism, maybe overlay with quota or something?

This is one of OpenBSD's shortcomings. While I like the fundamental design of all the file systems living contained within a "normal" MBR/GPT partition, the lack of advanced tools (no logical volume management, can only grow file systems but not shrink them etc.) has vexed me a couple of times during my 22 years of using OpenBSD. Thankfully it doesn't take long to get a good view of the storage requirements. I recommend playing around with OpenBSD in a virtual machine, e.g. VirtualBox or so.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#16

Post by anthk »

aspyct wrote: post #7

I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. I've been using various unices for about 20 years now, ranging from Slackware Linux to OpenSolaris to FreeBSD to Kubuntu. I gave openbsd a try a few years back, and found it utterly complicated to setup and use. And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm". No joke, one of the guys sa…

OpenBSD and Slackware user there. OpenBSD it's far easier to setup than any Linux distro like Slackware or a netinstall Debian.

>And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm"

You don't get a "man afterboot" advice for nothing.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#17

Post by PhantomGremlin »

aspyct wrote: post #7

I'm amazed at how the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots. I've been using various unices for about 20 years now, ranging from Slackware Linux to OpenSolaris to FreeBSD to Kubuntu. I gave openbsd a try a few years back, and found it utterly complicated to setup and use. And when you ask for help, you're treated like an idiot and the only reply you get is basically "rtfm". No joke, one of the guys sa…

the openbsd community seems to like calling people idiots

Even the title of this article reflects that mindset

There's cultural history about that very phrase. There was a series of books written with that exact title. They were intended to "provide a basic understanding of a complex and popular topics. The term 'idiot' is used as hyperbole". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_Idiot%27s_Guides

Edit: I want to add that apparently the author put a lot of effort into writing a fairly comprehensive document. It will probably be quite helpful for someone attempting that install.

The document shouldn't be dismissed just because of the title.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#18

Post by xorcist »

mrweasel wrote: post #6
nix23 wrote: post #4

My biggest problem with OpenBSD is the partitioning, do i want security? Then i need partitions with w^x but how big should they be without wasting to much space. I think OpenBSD would greatly benefit from stuff like zfs-filesystems or btrfs sub-partitions...and NO i don't say OpenBSD needs ZFS, just a more flexible partition mechanism, maybe overlay with quota or something?

Having used OpenBSD and seeing how partitions and mount options are used to increase security, it’s really weird going back to a Linux system where everything is just one big partition. You’re right though, it’s really tricky getting the partition sizes right. The auto layout is sensible, I just feel that it set aside to much space for home and to little for var. Linux has all the tools to make use of partitions, but…

It's a relatively recent thing. Before that, all major Linux distributions gave you a bunch of different filesystems by default. Which is how all UNIX-like systems worked, for a number of historical reasons.

This wasn't great in practice. One partition layout certainly doesn't fit everbody, and there is a world of difference between the use case of a laptop, a database server, and a small web server. Most people outgrew the default setup rather quickly.

Over time installers tended to get the simplest use case as default, while allowing users with knowledge to choose their desired file system setup.

Since more than a decade ago it's not necessary to choose since all major file systems have online resizing capabilities and you can change the setup without downtime. There's also no need to be limited by the age old partitioning format. That made the simple default even more appropriate.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#19

Post by anthk »

daneel_w wrote: post #15
nix23 wrote: post #4

My biggest problem with OpenBSD is the partitioning, do i want security? Then i need partitions with w^x but how big should they be without wasting to much space. I think OpenBSD would greatly benefit from stuff like zfs-filesystems or btrfs sub-partitions...and NO i don't say OpenBSD needs ZFS, just a more flexible partition mechanism, maybe overlay with quota or something?

This is one of OpenBSD's shortcomings. While I like the fundamental design of all the file systems living contained within a "normal" MBR/GPT partition, the lack of advanced tools (no logical volume management, can only grow file systems but not shrink them etc.) has vexed me a couple of times during my 22 years of using OpenBSD. Thankfully it doesn't take long to get a good view of the storage requirements. I recomm…

With current SSD's speed and price just use dump(8) and restore(8) to and from external devices.

Re: The complete idiot's guide to OpenBSD on the Pinebook Pro

#20

Post by anthk »

xorcist wrote: post #18
mrweasel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having used OpenBSD and seeing how partitions and mount options are used to increase security, it’s really weird going back to a Linux system where everything is just one big partition. You’re right though, it’s really tricky getting the partition sizes right. The auto layout is sensible, I just feel that it set aside to much space for home and to little for var. Linux has all the tools to make use of partitions, but…

It's a relatively recent thing. Before that, all major Linux distributions gave you a bunch of different filesystems by default. Which is how all UNIX-like systems worked, for a number of historical reasons. This wasn't great in practice. One partition layout certainly doesn't fit everbody, and there is a world of difference between the use case of a laptop, a database server, and a small web server. Most people outg…

BSD's don't use partitions, but slices.

And, well, NetBSD it's pretty conservative, but OpenBSD's defaults are good for a desktop.

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