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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#11

Post by decafninja »

frankbreetz wrote: post #5

>>Median wages for men have declined since 1990 in real terms. Roughly one-third of men are either unemployed or out of the workforce. I wonder how much of this is because more women are joining the workforce. If men are leaving the workforce by their own free will because their wife is working and they are staying home with the kids, both of these facts could be true, but seems like a win in both gender equality ter…

Do many married men really want that kind of life though?

It's one thing to be single and roaming the world carefree.

But my observation has been that most men who are married, especially if with children, have some innate desire to provide for the family and not being able to do so (due to unemployment, underemployment, etc.) causes them stress even if the wife is earning more than enough.

Those that don't seem to be an outlier. Is it biological? Is it social pressure? I don't know.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#12

Post by jaywalk »

paulcole wrote: post #7
Santosh83 wrote: post #2

Effect of dwindling & non-existent male role models and more importantly, fathers.

Why is this an issue? Aren't good role models good role models regardless of gender/sex?

A woman simply cannot be a role model in all of the same ways as a man, and vice-versa. This belief that men and women are the same and contribute in exactly the same ways is a big part of the problem that this article discusses.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#13

Post by mistrial9 »

paulcole wrote: post #7
Santosh83 wrote: post #2

Effect of dwindling & non-existent male role models and more importantly, fathers.

Why is this an issue? Aren't good role models good role models regardless of gender/sex?

some Depth Psychology (Jungian) suggests that the primal biological child is female. Development of a male starts similarly to the female, but must take steps over the growth phases, to differentiate. Historically males are very, very useful for successful survival and reproduction, but times have changed for WEIRD and others.. Meanwhile, cultural ritual was replaced by commercial "neutral" offerings that lessen differences in tribal/cultural groups, and therefore also remove or smooth out important development goal posts for young men.

source: student of Depth Psychology

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#14

Post by dang »

Here's the full Orwell quote.

People are wrong when they think that an unemployed man only worries about losing his wages; on the contrary, an illiterate man, with the work habit in his bones, needs work even more than he needs money. An educated man can put up with enforced idleness, which is one of the worst evils of poverty. But a man like Paddy, with no means of filling up time, is as miserable out of work as a dog on the chain. That is why it is such nonsense to pretend that those who have 'come down in the world' are to be pitied above all others. The man who really merits pity is the man who has been down from the start, and faces poverty with a blank, resourceless mind

From Down and Out in Paris and London.

(Someone should have known better than to try to link to Google Books from a mass media piece.)

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#15

Post by photochemsyn »

Santosh83 wrote: post #2

Effect of dwindling & non-existent male role models and more importantly, fathers.

There's little evidence for that kind of causality. Economic stability, on the other hand, i.e. the effects of neoliberalism over 40 years?

> "Economic transformation has been a big contributor. More than two-thirds of manufacturing workers are men; the sector has lost more than 5 million jobs since 2000. That’s a lot of unemployed men. Not just coincidentally, “deaths of despair” — those caused by suicide, overdose and alcoholism — have surged to unprecedented levels among middle-aged men over the past 20 years."

A society divided into wealthy elite homeowners living off investment cash flows, and poverty-striken underclass renters living off minimum wages, is not a very stable or healthy society.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#16

Post by ok_dad »

decafninja wrote: post #11
frankbreetz wrote: post #5

>>Median wages for men have declined since 1990 in real terms. Roughly one-third of men are either unemployed or out of the workforce. I wonder how much of this is because more women are joining the workforce. If men are leaving the workforce by their own free will because their wife is working and they are staying home with the kids, both of these facts could be true, but seems like a win in both gender equality ter…

Do many married men really want that kind of life though? It's one thing to be single and roaming the world carefree. But my observation has been that most men who are married, especially if with children, have some innate desire to provide for the family and not being able to do so (due to unemployment, underemployment, etc.) causes them stress even if the wife is earning more than enough. Those that don't seem to b…

Personally, I would love to quit working and take care of my family at home. I find much more joy in that than working a programming career. I think a lot of men have been conditioned to think we have to be the provider much like women have been conditioned to think they have to be a homemaker.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#17

Post by johncessna »

frankbreetz wrote: post #5

>>Median wages for men have declined since 1990 in real terms. Roughly one-third of men are either unemployed or out of the workforce. I wonder how much of this is because more women are joining the workforce. If men are leaving the workforce by their own free will because their wife is working and they are staying home with the kids, both of these facts could be true, but seems like a win in both gender equality ter…

> More U.S. men ages 18 to 34 are now living with their parents than with romantic partners.

and

> Research shows that one significant factor women look for in a partner is a steady job. As men’s unemployment rises, their romantic prospects decline. Unsurprisingly, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of data from 1960 to 2010, the proportion of adults without a college degree who marry plummeted from just over 70 percent to roughly 45 percent.

Seem to imply that this isn't a case of men choosing to stay at home with the kids. I'm curious what the actual data is though.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#18

Post by ddoolin »

trentnix wrote: post #10
Santosh83 wrote: post #2

Effect of dwindling & non-existent male role models and more importantly, fathers.

Yep. In all the talk of racial or gender privilege, the most beneficial privilege a person can enjoy is the benefits of a loving, supportive, traditional two-parent household (there is insufficient data on non-traditional two-parent households). You can see a direct correlation in outcomes when comparing children that emerged from two-parent households over those that emerge from single-parent households. But because…

I don't have too much to add, but as one of three sons of a quasi-single-parent household (multiple father figures, all with significant problems) who is now grown up with many points of comparison, this is so clearly and immediately obvious to me. I also have two kids of my own whom I have been on the fringe with and while I'm happy that I'm the only (and stable) figure in their lives, I worry what impact my long-distance presence will have.

The fathers I did have ranged from absent, to addicts, to abusive. I realize nobody is perfect but there has never been a positive role model for me and this affected me terribly in my relationships for so long (I've been to jail for abuse). I'm only lucky in that I got out of that cycle at least somewhat, and I can probably only credit the massive improvement in my economic condition. My brothers have not been so lucky.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#19

Post by junga »

trentnix wrote: post #10
Santosh83 wrote: post #2

Effect of dwindling & non-existent male role models and more importantly, fathers.

Yep. In all the talk of racial or gender privilege, the most beneficial privilege a person can enjoy is the benefits of a loving, supportive, traditional two-parent household (there is insufficient data on non-traditional two-parent households). You can see a direct correlation in outcomes when comparing children that emerged from two-parent households over those that emerge from single-parent households. But because…

Since you mentioned data: You sure do have data to back your claims?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#20

Post by alphabettsy »

Purely anecdotal, but it was uncool, dorky, nerdy, etc. where I grew up for boys to be interested in math or even English, but “more manly stuff” like working with your hands was highly encouraged. It seems that kind of culture will result in men being less likely to end up in higher paying careers.l than girls who are being encouraged to pursue STEM.
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