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Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

nytimes.com

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Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#11
post #8
post #2

I'm not a Christian, Muslim or Jew. I don't believe in God. I find it slightly unnerving that there's still religious fundamentalists out there that flatly refuse to accept scientific evidence of evolution and more, and yet... I can't stand Richard Dawkins. I know that there's some dangerous ideas put out there by fundamentalists, but for the most part, if they stick to themselves and are generally good people who do…

It may be insensitive to be so blunt about it, but I think the longer you're an atheist the harder it gets to keep a "live and let live" attitude. I liken it to having a friend who truly, sincerely believes in Santa Claus. At first, you might just laugh it off as a harmless quirk. But as time goes on, and every day you're hearing about Santa Claus this and he won't stop going off about whether or not he's on the Naug…

You could liken it to that, but you're using a logical fallacy (it's both a straw man and a reductio ad ridiculum).

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#12
I must preface this comment with a personal note: Dr. Dawkins is the reason I understand biology, evolution, and all living things. I have read all of his books on evolution, including The Selfish Gene, The Extended Phenotype, and many others.

This being said, I have always been appalled by Dawkins' deeply ironic crusade against religion. The simplest explanation for the widespread phenomenon of organized religion is best described by none other than Dawkins himself: Religion is a vestigial extended phenotype.

Dawkins popularized the idea of an extended phenotype. This theory postulates that the phenotypic effects of genes are not restricted to a single organism. In effect, certain gene expressions could result in behaviours which affected the said gene's rate of survival. This is a profound theory, because it posits a very strong evolutionary foundation for human socialization and behaviour. As discussed in Robert Wright's "A Moral Animal", and Matt Ridley's "The Red Queen", among many other works, recent evidence has made Dawkins' extended phenotype theory extremely plausible.

Thus, if we are to analyse religion from the view that it is a set of behaviours which maximizes a set of genes' reproductive success, everything begins making a great deal of sense. Paradoxically, if Dawkins used his his own theories to explain the phenotypic phenomenon that is organized religion, he'd have the vast support network of evolutionary scientists around the globe who would provide endless empirical examples[1] to validate his theory. Yet, Dawkins continues to treat religion as a philosophy, and attempts to tackle it philosophically. As many philosophers have pointed out, this is not Dawkins' strong point and he comes off sounding like an extremely misinformed amateur at best, and an inflammatory pundit at worst.

Furthermore, it is the scientific explanation of religion which is likely to be the most useful and profound, and as Ridley, Wright, and many others have demonstrated, what we can learn from these insights are far more pertinent to the human condition than Dawkins' misplaced philosophical crusade.

I sincerely hope Dr. Dawkins sees the unbelievable irony in his approach, and addresses it promptly. As one of the most popular scientists in media today, he could reverse a great deal of enmity that various religious groups have developed towards scientists and the scientific community. Scientific illiteracy is the greatest enemy of our time, and I do believe Dawkins is making the issue much worse by inflaming the public with his misinformed rhetoric.

Science has explained every natural phenomena known to man, and its explanatory power is only growing as we gather new empirical evidence. There is a growing body of research which demonstrates that all human behaviour is guided by a deep evolutionary purpose. This is especially true of religious behaviours which are widespread and have severe fitness costs. Religious behaviours are thus best understood as a vestigial extended phenotype, and not as an ontological philosophy.

[1]. http://evolution-of-religion.com/publications/

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#13
post #9
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've listened to Richard Dawkins debate live several times. In no instance have I ever heard him being anything other than perfectly gracious, even when being repeatedly personally attacked, so I'm having a hard time understanding your criticism of him - which amounts to calling him names.

Why don't you ask Rebecca Watson (co-host of The Skeptics Guide To The Universe) what she thinks of him? There was an incident at a recent skeptics conference where Watson was accosted & hit on by an attendee in the small hours of the morning while riding an elevator. She used her podcast & blog to describe the incident, hinting that maybe hitting on an un-escorted female in the middle of the night while the two of y…

I see. The parent characterized Dawkins as "arrogant" and "pig headed", and now you've characterized him as "foaming at the mouth", on a "tirade" and a "dick". You've also misstated his argument.

We get it. Many hate his message and because they can't argue coherently against that message, they mostly just call him names.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#14
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be insensitive to be so blunt about it, but I think the longer you're an atheist the harder it gets to keep a "live and let live" attitude. I liken it to having a friend who truly, sincerely believes in Santa Claus. At first, you might just laugh it off as a harmless quirk. But as time goes on, and every day you're hearing about Santa Claus this and he won't stop going off about whether or not he's on the Naug…

You could liken it to that, but you're using a logical fallacy (it's both a straw man and a reductio ad ridiculum).

Haha yes, you're totally correct. It was intended more as an illustrative analogy than a formal point of debate, but I take your point.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#15
post #12

I must preface this comment with a personal note: Dr. Dawkins is the reason I understand biology, evolution, and all living things. I have read all of his books on evolution, including The Selfish Gene, The Extended Phenotype, and many others. This being said, I have always been appalled by Dawkins' deeply ironic crusade against religion. The simplest explanation for the widespread phenomenon of organized religion is…

Dawkins is perfectly aware of this. In fact, he gives arguments of your flavor in The God Delusion. See also

http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/Dawkins/viruses-of-the-mind...

He is aware that his approach is not optimal in terms of changing people's minds, but I'm not so sure he cares.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2xGIwQfik

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#16
post #4
post #2

I'm not a Christian, Muslim or Jew. I don't believe in God. I find it slightly unnerving that there's still religious fundamentalists out there that flatly refuse to accept scientific evidence of evolution and more, and yet... I can't stand Richard Dawkins. I know that there's some dangerous ideas put out there by fundamentalists, but for the most part, if they stick to themselves and are generally good people who do…

This is pretty much my take on Richard Dawkins. I remember when "The God Delusion" was a hot topic hearing groups of otherwise intelligent people hi-fiving each other over how smart they were because they were atheists, & how COMPLETELY WRONG religion of any kind is. Maybe I just got all my anti-religious rage out of my system early in my life, but observing people carry on like the very fundamentalists they claim to…

If smugness and self-congratulation were the problem with fundamentalists, then the world would be a much better place. If it hadn't been for one really good science teacher, nobody at the high school I attended would have been taught about evolution. Large voting blocs are swayed into furious action by talk of "the sodomite agenda". I realize that a lot of people live in pretty secular areas, and can pretend that circlejerking is the only real problem with religious nuts, but that's just not true.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#17
post #15
post #12

I must preface this comment with a personal note: Dr. Dawkins is the reason I understand biology, evolution, and all living things. I have read all of his books on evolution, including The Selfish Gene, The Extended Phenotype, and many others. This being said, I have always been appalled by Dawkins' deeply ironic crusade against religion. The simplest explanation for the widespread phenomenon of organized religion is…

Dawkins is perfectly aware of this. In fact, he gives arguments of your flavor in The God Delusion. See also http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/Dawkins/viruses-of-the-mind... He is aware that his approach is not optimal in terms of changing people's minds, but I'm not so sure he cares. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2xGIwQfik

If Dawkins is aware of my points, his approach does not seem logical. The God Delusion approaches religion as a broken philosophy or a disease of the mind, not as an evolutionary phenomenon.

He does not quote any of the plethora of papers written on this subject, such as can be found here:

http://evolution-of-religion.com/publications/

A scientific approach to religious behaviour would not invoke philosophical arguments such as NOMA, or dismissive arguments such as labelling behaviours practised by the majority of the human species as a "mass delusion".

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#19
post #13
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't you ask Rebecca Watson (co-host of The Skeptics Guide To The Universe) what she thinks of him? There was an incident at a recent skeptics conference where Watson was accosted & hit on by an attendee in the small hours of the morning while riding an elevator. She used her podcast & blog to describe the incident, hinting that maybe hitting on an un-escorted female in the middle of the night while the two of y…

I see. The parent characterized Dawkins as "arrogant" and "pig headed", and now you've characterized him as "foaming at the mouth", on a "tirade" and a "dick". You've also misstated his argument. We get it. Many hate his message and because they can't argue coherently against that message, they mostly just call him names.

What about people who agree with his message, but still think he's a dick? Are they not allowed to exist?

Dawkins is an intelligent atheist skeptic, but he's also an incredibly sexist, insensitive ass whom many believe is consistently hurting the cause he claims to promote. You're allowed to think the latter even if you largely agree with his opinions as an atheist skeptic.

Re: Richard Dawkins: A Knack for Bashing Orthodoxy

#20
post #17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dawkins is perfectly aware of this. In fact, he gives arguments of your flavor in The God Delusion. See also http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/Dawkins/viruses-of-the-mind... He is aware that his approach is not optimal in terms of changing people's minds, but I'm not so sure he cares. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2xGIwQfik

If Dawkins is aware of my points, his approach does not seem logical. The God Delusion approaches religion as a broken philosophy or a disease of the mind, not as an evolutionary phenomenon. He does not quote any of the plethora of papers written on this subject, such as can be found here: http://evolution-of-religion.com/publications/ A scientific approach to religious behaviour would not invoke philosophical argume…

It isn't. In terms of Eliezer-style rationality, a much more effective approach would be to study marketing and psychology techniques and take a more calculated approach to changing minds. But I think Dawkins is disinterested in this because of its artificial (albeit highly effective) nature, and would rather speak raw truth. For him, the goal is to get the scientific viewpoint out to as many people as possible, not change their minds. He would ideally like for them to realize on their own that the scientific viewpoint is more cogent. He knows there are more effective means, but perhaps it offends his notion of purity. I suppose that is ironic.
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