Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

politico.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 71 posts

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#11

Post by VampireWillow »

ahelwer wrote: post #3

My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…

I worked at a suicide hotline in Canada. The problem with what you are saying is that, as far as I know, there is no unified organism for suicide prevention centers and hotlines in North America (there are associations, but they don't seem to demand a unified process).

This means that, while your experience totally sucked, it can't be generalized. Most people I've talked to from all over the country genuinely want to help. I assume it's the same in the US. But some centers offer very little training, and their legal means probably vary a lot by location.

That said, there is a lot they can do beyond calling an ambulance, but it still comes down to talking and guidance, no one can physically force people to get better, except maybe some institutions (debatable).

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#12

Post by ReactiveJelly »

ahelwer wrote: post #3

My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…

Trans Lifeline [1] calls that practice "Non-consensual rescue" and they're very strongly against it.

> The organization’s hotline does not engage in non-consensual active rescue,[15] meaning operators never call 911, police, or emergency services on callers without an expressed request and consent, based on research associating involuntary hospitalization with increases suicide attempts after discharge.[16][17] Additionally, they believe that calling the police on transgender people in crisis, particularly trans people of color, causes more harm.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_Lifeline

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#13

Post by alexashka »

ahelwer wrote: post #3

My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…

You have to understand that this is a poorly paid phone job for the person on the other end.

They don't have a PhD. They are not top 1% intelligence, top 1% compassion and top 1% drive to help others. They are just people who applied for a job, got it and are following a script or whatever little training they've been given.

When you're younger, you think there's adults who know a thing or two. Then you grow up and realize that's 0.0001% of the population. Everyone else knows how to do a couple of repetitive tasks and repeat sentences they heard other people say, not much more than that.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#14

Post by chrisseaton »

jacquesm wrote: post #4

This is quite disgusting. If there is one place where your privacy should be guarded it is there, plenty of places will forcibly admit you (at huge costs) if they see you as a suicide risk.

> plenty of places will forcibly admit you (at huge costs) if they see you as a suicide risk

How's that legally done?

Is suicide even a crime in most countries? I don't think it is.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#15

Post by 542458 »

ahelwer wrote: post #3

My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…

I’ve actually found crisis lines to be fairly helpful. Sure, they have little real world power but the people I have spoken to have been calm and reassuring, which more often than not has been what I needed. A few people I’ve spoken to have been particularly memorably great, and I wish I could buy them all a beer.

This isn’t to dismiss those who’ve had bad experiences. I just wanted to offer a different perspective.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#16

Post by loceng »

I've thought for awhile the solution to a better funnel for mental health is to allow multiple organizations to be the ones answering the phone, and implementing their own protocol - process for hiring or accepting volunteers, the training they receive, the script they follow - if any, and then free or for-pay offerings or programs they may know of and feel that person may be a good candidate for. Basically A/B testing and then at least you have a variety of data to analyze to see what the outcomes are.

I think what's mostly lacking though is an intermediate in-person program that's pre-psychiatric ward, an intensive-supportive environment, where the go-to isn't medications - probably where medications aren't prescribed - but basically in-person to determine a person's full state, and see what amount of short-term and/or long-term care they need to feel stable enough, if not good, on their own again. This requires money of course, and the sooner we can get people into these programs then the less dis-ease progression occurs, and arguably people will be easier to help.

Does anyone know of any such program or protocol, where care/treatment cascades and/or escalates and/or continues in-person in wide variety of breadth and depth depending on each person? I feel the current go-to with medications is generally that the medications are a hammer, so everything looks like a nail, but if multi-disciplinary teams (not just a psychiatrist trained in medication) rallied around a person and they had a whole toolkit worth of options then outcomes would be magnitudes better - and without causing additional harm.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#17

Post by thrown_22 »

ahelwer wrote: post #3

My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…

When reddit added a "get help" message for suicide hotlines it was a way for 'nice' people to tell you to kill yourself without a death threat.

Kind of how old church ladies used to tell you they will pray for your immortal soul to not end in hell.

I have a feeling that those two groups are related in the biological sense.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#18

Post by temp-dude-87844 »

ahelwer wrote: post #3

My impression of these services are that they are simply available so people can feel they have "done something" about someone who seems suicidal by giving them the number, then wash their hands of the rest of it. Not that someone else's mental health puts any particular obligation on you, but that's the dynamic I see play out. I've called these services twice over the years when I was young and naive and had friends…

The same conundrum comes up with the medical forms that ask one to self-report any post-partum depression, or any time you can be found mentally unfit (e.g. at your job, like in 2015 Germanwings pilot-murder-suicide) so that the bureaucracy descends to irrevocably alter your life. As a society, we still haven't figured out a way that allows a suicidal person to get their time-out, while ensuring that that intervention won't impair their future.

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#19

Post by jonwachob91 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #14
jacquesm wrote: post #4

This is quite disgusting. If there is one place where your privacy should be guarded it is there, plenty of places will forcibly admit you (at huge costs) if they see you as a suicide risk.

> plenty of places will forcibly admit you (at huge costs) if they see you as a suicide risk How's that legally done? Is suicide even a crime in most countries? I don't think it is.

In Florida we call it the "Baker Act"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Act

Re: Suicide hotline shares data with for-profit spinoff, raising ethical questions

#20

Post by Operyl »

chrisseaton wrote: post #14
jacquesm wrote: post #4

This is quite disgusting. If there is one place where your privacy should be guarded it is there, plenty of places will forcibly admit you (at huge costs) if they see you as a suicide risk.

> plenty of places will forcibly admit you (at huge costs) if they see you as a suicide risk How's that legally done? Is suicide even a crime in most countries? I don't think it is.

Various laws, such as the Baker Act in Florida, it’s so bad it’s used like this in sentences: “Yeah, Sally was baker act’ed last week, she’s still in”.
Post reply on HN