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Why I’m for Covid vaccines, but against vaccine mandates – Dr. Peter Attia

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Re: Why I’m for Covid vaccines, but against vaccine mandates – Dr. Peter Attia

#11

Post by s1artibartfast »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #4
s1artibartfast wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are missing the argument. The point they made was that hospitals would/should have been able to handle the case burden without mandates. They further argue that hospital mandates have resulted in reduced capacity, due to staffing issues. They claim that hospitals should have accepted prior infection for workers as a valid exemption, and thereby avoided firings and resignations.

He said they should be able to with access to Paxlovid and Molnupiravir, which aren't yet available in sufficient quantity . > They claim that hospitals should have accepted prior infection for workers as a valid exemption, and thereby avoided firings and resignations. This is an argument for a modified hospital worker mandate, not an argument against vaccine mandates. Additionally, the author confuses himself furthe…

>This is an argument for a modified hospital worker mandate, not an argument against vaccine mandates.

Correct, and I feel this was made clear that it was a sub point in the article.

I'm not interested on stealmaning every claim in the article, just the one you identified in your op

Re: Why I’m for Covid vaccines, but against vaccine mandates – Dr. Peter Attia

#12

Post by ls15 »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #2

Sloppily argued. He debates straw men for most of the article before finally getting to the actual reason for vaccine mandates. "What about mandating vaccines to prevent hospitals from being overrun with COVID cases?" At this point, he inexplicably argues against vaccine mandates for health workers instead of answering the question. If you can make Covid less likely to result in hospitalization than the flu, as he re…

> If you can make Covid less likely to result in hospitalization than the flu, as he readily admits the vaccine does, you can make Covid not cause hospitals to be overrun.

For perspective: at the peak of the most deadly Covid wave, Germany's hospitals for two weeks had an average Covid share of 5%, while 95% of patients were in for other reasons.

https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/fileadmin/Dateie...

> Gemessen an der vorhandenen Bettenkapazität ergibt sich eine durchschnittliche Belegungsquote von 1,3% durch COVID-19. Die höchsten tagesbezogenen Belegungsquoten gab es in der zweiten Dezemberhälfte mit knapp 5% aller Betten.

Re: Why I’m for Covid vaccines, but against vaccine mandates – Dr. Peter Attia

#13

Post by rsynnott »

yucky wrote: post #5
lern_too_spel wrote: post #2

Sloppily argued. He debates straw men for most of the article before finally getting to the actual reason for vaccine mandates. "What about mandating vaccines to prevent hospitals from being overrun with COVID cases?" At this point, he inexplicably argues against vaccine mandates for health workers instead of answering the question. If you can make Covid less likely to result in hospitalization than the flu, as he re…

78% of the people hospitalized with Covid have been obese[1]. Almost half had diabetes. Mandates ignore this, and are therefore not logical. At no point in the pandemic has government included in their messaging the need to lose weight and exercise. It's always an argument of top down control. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughl...

Governments have been telling people to eat healthier since roughly World War 2.

The status of people going to hospital is largely irrelevant; the goal should be to ensure that fewer people do. We know that the government telling people to lose weight is not particularly effective, because, again, governments in the developed world have been trying for decades without much success. More direct methods (eg the sugar taxes/minimum pricing that some European countries have introduced) are looking to be a bit more effective, but you're looking at a slow. However, covid vaccines are known to be very effective, and can be given quickly, so encouraging people to get those is appropriate.

Re: Why I’m for Covid vaccines, but against vaccine mandates – Dr. Peter Attia

#14

Post by lern_too_spel »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #11
lern_too_spel wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He said they should be able to with access to Paxlovid and Molnupiravir, which aren't yet available in sufficient quantity . > They claim that hospitals should have accepted prior infection for workers as a valid exemption, and thereby avoided firings and resignations. This is an argument for a modified hospital worker mandate, not an argument against vaccine mandates. Additionally, the author confuses himself furthe…

>This is an argument for a modified hospital worker mandate, not an argument against vaccine mandates. Correct, and I feel this was made clear that it was a sub point in the article. I'm not interested on stealmaning every claim in the article, just the one you identified in your op

Then why does he even bother saying that if his thesis is that vaccine mandates are bad? He supports that thesis by arguing against strawmen before finally getting to the actual argument, which I quoted, and totally ignoring it.

Re: Why I’m for Covid vaccines, but against vaccine mandates – Dr. Peter Attia

#15

Post by yucky »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #10
yucky wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Would increasing the messaging around obesity affecting Covid mortality specifically cause any significant difference in hospitalization? Based on the data, yes. So what would the argument against it be?

> Based on the data, yes. Once again, what data shows that such messaging would work? I have repeatedly stated that this messaging is highly unlikely to be effective and have given straightforward arguments for why I believe so.

If you told people that the vast majority of people hospitalized with Covid are obese, you don't think that would drive people to address their obesity knowing that Covid is going to be endemic and will always be a threat if they don't?

Re: Why I’m for Covid vaccines, but against vaccine mandates – Dr. Peter Attia

#16

Post by s1artibartfast »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #14
s1artibartfast wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is an argument for a modified hospital worker mandate, not an argument against vaccine mandates. Correct, and I feel this was made clear that it was a sub point in the article. I'm not interested on stealmaning every claim in the article, just the one you identified in your op

Then why does he even bother saying that if his thesis is that vaccine mandates are bad? He supports that thesis by arguing against strawmen before finally getting to the actual argument, which I quoted, and totally ignoring it.

I don't know what to say. I thought the article structure made sense but I guess it didn't for you. What you call strawmen is what I commonly hear as arguments for mandates.

Thesis: Vaccine are good but mandates are bad

Background: advantages to vaccines, transmission data, current risks

Refute common arguments for mandatory vaccination 1) protect the vaccinated. 2) decrease transmission 3) hospital capacity 4) prior infection is inadequate

Review downsides to mandates: Harms and inconvenience to those who choose not to be vaccinated.

Conclusion

I think they key point they are arguing for is in the "bottom line" conclusion:

>If this were really about science, why would we not allow previous infection, which confers all the benefits of vaccination, if not more, the same rights? Does it not seem that mandates are having the opposite effect to what is desired? Instead of increasing vaccination rates are mandates instead hardening and alienating the unvaccinated further? If we are being honest with ourselves, are the mandates truly for the protection of the vaccinated, or do they exist to punish the unvaccinated?

I agree it would have been clearer if they stated their position as a declaration, opposed to a question, but it is right there

Re: Why I’m for Covid vaccines, but against vaccine mandates – Dr. Peter Attia

#17

Post by lern_too_spel »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #16
lern_too_spel wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why does he even bother saying that if his thesis is that vaccine mandates are bad? He supports that thesis by arguing against strawmen before finally getting to the actual argument, which I quoted, and totally ignoring it.

I don't know what to say. I thought the article structure made sense but I guess it didn't for you. What you call strawmen is what I commonly hear as arguments for mandates. Thesis: Vaccine are good but mandates are bad Background: advantages to vaccines, transmission data, current risks Refute common arguments for mandatory vaccination 1) protect the vaccinated. 2) decrease transmission 3) hospital capacity 4) prior…

Which of his arguments do you hear as arguments for mandates by the people who can implement mandates? Only hospital capacity. After hospital capacity is not a problem, governments can treat it as endemic. Every single non-Covid-zero government is in agreement about this.

Even your quoted section demonstrates the author's sloppy thinking. Once again, mandates aren't to protect the vaccinated but to prevent hospitals from being overrun. Second, that is not an argument against mandates but an argument for a modified mandate. Third, his argument for a modified mandate is also wrong because we don't allow previously infected people to avoid the vaccine for the same reason we didn't give them immunity passports. Doing so sets up incentives to make the next pandemic even worse.

Joe Rogan brings a bunch of sloppy thinkers including this author on his show, and his listeners don't understand why no government in the world is listening to these quacks. All you have to do is think about the other side instead of passively listening to what the radio guy says, and it's easy to figure out.

Re: Why I’m for Covid vaccines, but against vaccine mandates – Dr. Peter Attia

#18

Post by lern_too_spel »

yucky wrote: post #15
lern_too_spel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Based on the data, yes. Once again, what data shows that such messaging would work? I have repeatedly stated that this messaging is highly unlikely to be effective and have given straightforward arguments for why I believe so.

If you told people that the vast majority of people hospitalized with Covid are obese, you don't think that would drive people to address their obesity knowing that Covid is going to be endemic and will always be a threat if they don't?

That's what I said. No other problem with obesity has caused people to stop being obese. There is no reason to believe that Covid messaging will do that. Worse than that, the people who don't like the government telling them they should get vaccinated also don't like the government telling them they should eat healthier or exercise and will do the opposite on purpose, making the problem worse. The people who aren't in that group who are at risk already got vaccinated.

Re: Why I’m for Covid vaccines, but against vaccine mandates – Dr. Peter Attia

#19

Post by yucky »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #18
yucky wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you told people that the vast majority of people hospitalized with Covid are obese, you don't think that would drive people to address their obesity knowing that Covid is going to be endemic and will always be a threat if they don't?

That's what I said. No other problem with obesity has caused people to stop being obese. There is no reason to believe that Covid messaging will do that. Worse than that, the people who don't like the government telling them they should get vaccinated also don't like the government telling them they should eat healthier or exercise and will do the opposite on purpose, making the problem worse. The people who aren't i…

If we know that obesity is the biggest risk factor for Covid severity, it seems irresponsible not to adjust our messaging to make that crystal clear to everyone.

Re: Why I’m for Covid vaccines, but against vaccine mandates – Dr. Peter Attia

#20

Post by lern_too_spel »

yucky wrote: post #19
lern_too_spel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I said. No other problem with obesity has caused people to stop being obese. There is no reason to believe that Covid messaging will do that. Worse than that, the people who don't like the government telling them they should get vaccinated also don't like the government telling them they should eat healthier or exercise and will do the opposite on purpose, making the problem worse. The people who aren't i…

If we know that obesity is the biggest risk factor for Covid severity, it seems irresponsible not to adjust our messaging to make that crystal clear to everyone.

Everybody who can benefit from it already knows. We're discussing policy decisions. Policies that increase vaccination rates work. Policies that message obesity reduction don't work.
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