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Anarchists making their own medicine (2018)

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Re: Anarchists making their own medicine (2018)

#11

Post by tablespoon »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #10
tablespoon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you send your compounds off for proper testing it shouldn't be that dangerous, but that will increase the cost a few 100% most likely > Testing usually doesn't come cheap, but you also might be able to drop by a well equipped Chem department at a university for testing as well I don't think it's that easy. Even if you successfully synthesize the right chemical, you also have to get dosage and delivery right (con…

> If I had to depend on an epipen to save my life, I don't think I'd want a DIY version that may not work when I need it. Sure I guess it's better than nothing, but it's also proof this clearly isn't the solution to the $600 epipen problem. DIY versions are normally more expensive than mass-produced equivalents. So either this DIY version has atrocious quality, or $600 is far too expensive. (Judging by the prices in…

> DIY versions are normally more expensive than mass-produced equivalents. So either this DIY version has atrocious quality, or $600 is far too expensive. (Judging by the prices in normal countries, $600 is far too expensive!)

Yeah, the answer is $600 is far too expensive.

IMHO the answer is some kind of regulation (e.g. limiting the profit margin on generics or even drugs more generally), or some kind of boutique government-owned generic maker tasked with being a manufacturer of last resort and selling generics at its cost (which should be higher than a non-price-gouging private company, so it works to put a price-ceiling on those companies and also acts as insurance against unavailability).

Re: Anarchists making their own medicine (2018)

#12

Post by dekhn »

I know a bunch about pharma. The folks who are doing this and saying it's cheaper are often completely neglecting costs that are borne by corporations: the initial R&D, but also the immense amount of quality control and regulatory compliance.

I've also talked to the biohackers. S ome of them are smart, careful, and just get stuff done in the lab. Then there are the attention hogs who inject themselves on youtube (typically with no ability to know if they did anything at all), many of whom, after a few years, realize that what they are doing is naive, and that there was actually a reason for the entire establishment around pharma.

Re: Anarchists making their own medicine (2018)

#13

Post by ur-whale »

tablespoon wrote: post #11
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I had to depend on an epipen to save my life, I don't think I'd want a DIY version that may not work when I need it. Sure I guess it's better than nothing, but it's also proof this clearly isn't the solution to the $600 epipen problem. DIY versions are normally more expensive than mass-produced equivalents. So either this DIY version has atrocious quality, or $600 is far too expensive. (Judging by the prices in…

> DIY versions are normally more expensive than mass-produced equivalents. So either this DIY version has atrocious quality, or $600 is far too expensive. (Judging by the prices in normal countries, $600 is far too expensive!) Yeah, the answer is $600 is far too expensive. IMHO the answer is some kind of regulation (e.g. limiting the profit margin on generics or even drugs more generally), or some kind of boutique go…

> IMHO the answer is some kind of regulation

IMHO, the solution is actually less regulation.

If any company could enter that market with being sued into the ground, you'd get top notch a quality product for a fraction of the price before you could finish spelling epinephrine.

Re: Anarchists making their own medicine (2018)

#14

Post by nynx »

I hope we can eventually have self-contained machines that can synthesize many different types of medications. By certifying the machines or testing them thoroughly, you can lessen the worry that people will synthesize the drugs wrong.

I think this is almost possible for a large range of simple, small-molecule drugs.

Re: Anarchists making their own medicine (2018)

#15

Post by wizzwizz4 »

ur-whale wrote: post #13
tablespoon wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DIY versions are normally more expensive than mass-produced equivalents. So either this DIY version has atrocious quality, or $600 is far too expensive. (Judging by the prices in normal countries, $600 is far too expensive!) Yeah, the answer is $600 is far too expensive. IMHO the answer is some kind of regulation (e.g. limiting the profit margin on generics or even drugs more generally), or some kind of boutique go…

> IMHO the answer is some kind of regulation IMHO, the solution is actually less regulation. If any company could enter that market with being sued into the ground, you'd get top notch a quality product for a fraction of the price before you could finish spelling epinephrine.

The computer market is not particularly regulated, yet we still have international big tech monopolies stifling competition. I think the US simultaneously needs:

• less regulation, to reduce barriers-to-entry

• more regulation, to allow competition

Normally, I'd be concerned about reduced regulations having safety implications, but the existing situation is already unsafe.

Re: Anarchists making their own medicine (2018)

#16

Post by mastazi »

petermcneeley wrote: post #5

Not an Anachist but I wonder how much of the danger here is due to the law. Ideally they would simply be selling the epipencils and doing testing etc but there is no way they would be able to do this. So instead the best they can do is create DIY kits. I wonder how far they can legally push the DIY kit. Can they ship you supplies with the kit? Can they ship you expresso-like packs for your DIY machine?

This reminds me of vaping in Australia: since vaping liquids containing nicotine are illegal, people make their own liquid by mixing nicotine-free vaping liquids (which are legal) with nicotine extracted from products such as Nicorette (which are also legal) - unfortunately some just go back to cigarettes rather than going through all that trouble.

Luckily, I didn't go back to the stinkies - I never smoked again (I also quit vaping after a while, quitting vaping is not hard because it's not nearly as addictive as ciggies are).

Re: Anarchists making their own medicine (2018)

#17

Post by petermcneeley »

dekhn wrote: post #12

I know a bunch about pharma. The folks who are doing this and saying it's cheaper are often completely neglecting costs that are borne by corporations: the initial R&D, but also the immense amount of quality control and regulatory compliance. I've also talked to the biohackers. S ome of them are smart, careful, and just get stuff done in the lab. Then there are the attention hogs who inject themselves on youtube (typ…

There is a really simple number that tells you what the costs of a company are vs its prices to users. Its called profit. So are the pharama companies profitable?

Re: Anarchists making their own medicine (2018)

#18

Post by notch656a »

dekhn wrote: post #12

I know a bunch about pharma. The folks who are doing this and saying it's cheaper are often completely neglecting costs that are borne by corporations: the initial R&D, but also the immense amount of quality control and regulatory compliance. I've also talked to the biohackers. S ome of them are smart, careful, and just get stuff done in the lab. Then there are the attention hogs who inject themselves on youtube (typ…

Those costs aren't all borne by corporations, just the profits. The cost is the cost of public schooling of the children that invent these things, the invention and development of internet partially funded by DARPA that allows quickly conveying scientific information these companies use, the millinia of scientific research that precedes the invention.

The corporation then benefits from regulatory capture, and insanely high regulatory barriers to lock away less capitalized competitors from introducing their own unique drugs. Those who can afford the insane regulatory costs then can squeeze consumers dry.

Open up a maximally free market for pharmaceuticals and watch these snakes die. If I want to GC/MS some shit I bought out of some guys basement to check purity myself then let me.

Re: Anarchists making their own medicine (2018)

#19

Post by dekhn »

notch656a wrote: post #18
dekhn wrote: post #12

I know a bunch about pharma. The folks who are doing this and saying it's cheaper are often completely neglecting costs that are borne by corporations: the initial R&D, but also the immense amount of quality control and regulatory compliance. I've also talked to the biohackers. S ome of them are smart, careful, and just get stuff done in the lab. Then there are the attention hogs who inject themselves on youtube (typ…

Those costs aren't all borne by corporations, just the profits. The cost is the cost of public schooling of the children that invent these things, the invention and development of internet partially funded by DARPA that allows quickly conveying scientific information these companies use, the millinia of scientific research that precedes the invention. The corporation then benefits from regulatory capture, and insanel…

QC and regulatory costs are absolutely borne by the corporations that are getting their drugs approved. Those are major expenditures.

I'm not completely arguing with the idea that pharma overprices drugs, but to me, that's a distinct problem from who pays for, and benefits from research and development.

Re: Anarchists making their own medicine (2018)

#20

Post by dekhn »

petermcneeley wrote: post #17
dekhn wrote: post #12

I know a bunch about pharma. The folks who are doing this and saying it's cheaper are often completely neglecting costs that are borne by corporations: the initial R&D, but also the immense amount of quality control and regulatory compliance. I've also talked to the biohackers. S ome of them are smart, careful, and just get stuff done in the lab. Then there are the attention hogs who inject themselves on youtube (typ…

There is a really simple number that tells you what the costs of a company are vs its prices to users. Its called profit. So are the pharama companies profitable?

Yes, most large pharma are very profitable (it's one of the most profitable sectors). As we liked to joke, Roche isn't so much a pharma company as it is a wealthy family that invests in pharma because it's so profitable (until recently there was a very interest structure of family cross-ownership of all the Basel-based pharma firms that was set up for or less for MAD purposes).
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