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Kropotkin escapes from prison

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Re: Kropotkin escapes from prison

#11

[flagged]

The Tsarist autocracy that he was chafing against was doing a pretty good job of ruining its country prior to the February revolution.

And if the provisional government did a better job of turning that train around, it's unlikely the October revolution would have been successful.

Re: Kropotkin escapes from prison

#15

[flagged]

Kropotkin was an anarchist and generally opposed to communism. Wars have been fought over the distinction.

You are overstating the opposition. Kropotkin was generally friendly with Lenin and met with him shortly before their deaths where they were quite cordial though they disagreed, and he did return to the Russia while it was ruled by the bolsheviks.

While he did think the Bolsheviks would not achieve communism because of the over-centralization of their rule, he still supported their goals and thought the October revolution was worthwhile despite being bound to fail even if only as an experiment on how to better introduce communism.

Kropotkin was thus both an anarchist and a communist and was cordial and cooperated with authoritarian communists.

Re: Kropotkin escapes from prison

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kropotkin was an anarchist and generally opposed to communism. Wars have been fought over the distinction.

You are overstating the opposition. Kropotkin was generally friendly with Lenin and met with him shortly before their deaths where they were quite cordial though they disagreed, and he did return to the Russia while it was ruled by the bolsheviks. While he did think the Bolsheviks would not achieve communism because of the over-centralization of their rule, he still supported their goals and thought the October revol…

Yes, Kropotkin's anarchism is a form of communism without government. The anarchists formed a separate faction from the Marxists in the IWA. The anarchists in Russia were finally suppressed by Lenin following the Kronstadt Rebellion in 1921.

Re: Kropotkin escapes from prison

#17

That was great. While in jail I only had two serious opportunities to escape. The first an unscheduled incoming call from an embassy official meant I was brought to a secure area to use a special phone. It was right by the sally port [0] which normally has at least one door closed. Both were open. I could have run directly out to the street. The guards do not carry their guns inside the jail. The second was on a run…

Surely even if they had guns, murdering you is not an appropriate response to a possible escape?

In the US, they can and do create any quantum theory of your potential actions as legal justification for any preemptive action in their local department’s catalogue of actions, which you will never be privy to at the time. You are also not privy to the exact way in which you cease being an eliminable quantum threat, which may be nonexistent.

In some departments, officers have been fired for not eliminating a threat that the officer felt didn’t need to be “eliminated”.

So extrajudicial capital punishment for basically anything is legal in every state and territory in the US.

“Justified” only means that the action the officer chose was one of the equally weighted choices in the department’s current catalogue. It is not a tiered response, it is only an available response.

Re: Kropotkin escapes from prison

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kropotkin was an anarchist and generally opposed to communism. Wars have been fought over the distinction.

You are overstating the opposition. Kropotkin was generally friendly with Lenin and met with him shortly before their deaths where they were quite cordial though they disagreed, and he did return to the Russia while it was ruled by the bolsheviks. While he did think the Bolsheviks would not achieve communism because of the over-centralization of their rule, he still supported their goals and thought the October revol…

I think we are dealing with multiple meanings of word "communism" here.

Anarchists are opposed to communism in the commonly understood sense: a centralized state ruled by the communist party. Kropotkin was friendly with the Bolsheviks, who had not become communists in that sense yet. He supported the October Revolution, but he quickly became critical of Bolshevik rule afterwards. He believed it would not lead into communism in the sense the word was understood at that time: a society based on common ownership of the means of production without state or social classes.

Re: Kropotkin escapes from prison

#19

That was great. While in jail I only had two serious opportunities to escape. The first an unscheduled incoming call from an embassy official meant I was brought to a secure area to use a special phone. It was right by the sally port [0] which normally has at least one door closed. Both were open. I could have run directly out to the street. The guards do not carry their guns inside the jail. The second was on a run…

Many western countries don't even bother trying to prevent in escapes for some of their prisons. For instance in Germany about 20% of prisoners could run away daily - when they leave the prison to go to work or whatever ("open prisons"). But less than one in a hundred do. I probably don't need to tell you about some of the special Scandinavian prisons.

Most people just want to get their sentence behind them, not become a fugitive. It likely was the same for you.

Re: Kropotkin escapes from prison

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are overstating the opposition. Kropotkin was generally friendly with Lenin and met with him shortly before their deaths where they were quite cordial though they disagreed, and he did return to the Russia while it was ruled by the bolsheviks. While he did think the Bolsheviks would not achieve communism because of the over-centralization of their rule, he still supported their goals and thought the October revol…

I think we are dealing with multiple meanings of word "communism" here. Anarchists are opposed to communism in the commonly understood sense: a centralized state ruled by the communist party. Kropotkin was friendly with the Bolsheviks, who had not become communists in that sense yet. He supported the October Revolution, but he quickly became critical of Bolshevik rule afterwards. He believed it would not lead into co…

A centralized state ruled by a party is not the commonly understood sense, or people would think that all dictatorships are communist, which they don't. In either case, it is bizarre to try to correct the record with something that is in and of itself a misunderstanding.

The Bolsheviks were very forthcoming. They professed from even before the revolution that they were aiming for a pretty centralized state ruled by a vanguard party. They never pretended anything else. It is only after the death of Lenin that they started diverging more and more from what they originally professed.

Kropotkin was critical of the Bolsheviks from before the revolution and actually became more amicable to them after the revolution than before. Indeed he found the fact that they had managed to lead a revolution to be a profound good for humanity that would, in his own words, "enlighten the path of the civilised countries for at least a century", and agreed that the Bolsheviks were communists just as well as him, only that they would be eventually unsuccessful.

In any case, the sense the word is understood by many at this time is itself a misunderstanding. There is a reason why China agrees that their system is not communism, and indeed the word is still used in the way it was intended originally by a great many people. Taking it to be the common sense in English instead of the correct sense is to be in error.

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