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The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

intenseminimalism.com

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Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#11

Post by endtwist »

mgkimsal wrote: post #3

Yay - designer/developer "teams". Sounds fair enough, but it's gotta work both ways. You as a designer need to be flexible. If I as a developer say "that can't be done within the given time/budget/constraints", you'll need to rework or rethink some of your precious design. I as a developer need to sometimes do some more research to make sure something can, in fact, be done, instead of relying on 10 year old preconcep…

Design is not about the tools you use, and development is not about the code you write.

Developers can learn design fundamentals (and I mean really basic "what's the idea behind this color/element/typographic decision?") without touching Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.

Similarly, designers can learn about what is and isn't possible, without learning to code, through research about the existing technologies and their use cases.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#12

Post by ilcavero »

jinushaun wrote: post #8

I disagree. Just to be clear, we're talking web design here in HTML/CSS, not actual programming in JavaScript or Ruby. HTML/CSS creates designs, just like pencils create sketches and paint brushes create painting. Sure, it's hard, but watercolor and oil painting is also hard and has to be learned. Web design is no different. IMO, in a team, creating the HTML and CSS is a responsibility of the designer. The developers…

I agree with you, what's next after this? designers that can't use photoshop because it is not part of their intelligence type? HTML/CSS is the designers medium and they have to learn how to use it just as a painter needs to learn how to use paintbrushes or a film director needs to learn how to use a camera.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#13

Post by mgkimsal »

folletto wrote: post #9
mgkimsal wrote: post #3

Yay - designer/developer "teams". Sounds fair enough, but it's gotta work both ways. You as a designer need to be flexible. If I as a developer say "that can't be done within the given time/budget/constraints", you'll need to rework or rethink some of your precious design. I as a developer need to sometimes do some more research to make sure something can, in fact, be done, instead of relying on 10 year old preconcep…

You're right. Every discussion about "designers should code" always shows problem in teamwork and communication, not in coding skills. :) And even if as I was saying learning to code is a way to create these skills, like designing things is for developers, another way is just listening to the developers/designers in your team. It works very well and it's way more efficient for a lot of different people. :) Teamwork,…

Agreed, although "just listening" doesn't go as far as "just listening while also having walked a bit in their shoes, or at least tried those shoes on for size."

I saw a presentation by a designer/developer team a couple years back - one blog entry on that is here: http://www.viget.com/inspire/stop-driving-your-developers-cr...

Another here: http://www.viget.com/extend/stop-pissing-off-your-designers/

And slides here http://www.slideshare.net/mindywagner/10-things-designers-do...

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#14

Post by gavanwoolery »

I will call your bullshit and raise you a fallacy. ;) But seriously, I think that pigeon-holing yourself into one skill set is the WORST thing you can do. If nothing else, you should at least attempt to learn code so that you might be able to produce reasonable, efficient designs that the coders can easily implement.

But it goes much farther than that.

Someone (on the internet) once said "programming is the new literacy."

I am both an artist and a programer. I am not very good at either, but I find having a knowledge of both is extremely empowering. I DO NOT believe that you are born an artist or programmer. Sure, you might be born with a slightly better brain than the next person, but anyone with an IQ above 70 can learn to program and/or draw. Learning both is not time wasted, but time invested. Being a good programmer can actually save you time as a designer.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#15

Post by [deleted] »

endtwist wrote: post #11
mgkimsal wrote: post #3

Yay - designer/developer "teams". Sounds fair enough, but it's gotta work both ways. You as a designer need to be flexible. If I as a developer say "that can't be done within the given time/budget/constraints", you'll need to rework or rethink some of your precious design. I as a developer need to sometimes do some more research to make sure something can, in fact, be done, instead of relying on 10 year old preconcep…

Design is not about the tools you use, and development is not about the code you write. Developers can learn design fundamentals (and I mean really basic "what's the idea behind this color/element/typographic decision?") without touching Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. Similarly, designers can learn about what is and isn't possible, without learning to code, through research about the existing technologies and their use…

[deleted]

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#16

Post by folletto »

mgkimsal wrote: post #13
folletto wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. Every discussion about "designers should code" always shows problem in teamwork and communication, not in coding skills. :) And even if as I was saying learning to code is a way to create these skills, like designing things is for developers, another way is just listening to the developers/designers in your team. It works very well and it's way more efficient for a lot of different people. :) Teamwork,…

Agreed, although "just listening" doesn't go as far as "just listening while also having walked a bit in their shoes, or at least tried those shoes on for size." I saw a presentation by a designer/developer team a couple years back - one blog entry on that is here: http://www.viget.com/inspire/stop-driving-your-developers-cr... Another here: http://www.viget.com/extend/stop-pissing-off-your-designers/ And slides here…

Yeah, that's a huge collection of communication problems, great. Exactly on spot. :)

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#17

Post by folletto »

jinushaun wrote: post #8

I disagree. Just to be clear, we're talking web design here in HTML/CSS, not actual programming in JavaScript or Ruby. HTML/CSS creates designs, just like pencils create sketches and paint brushes create painting. Sure, it's hard, but watercolor and oil painting is also hard and has to be learned. Web design is no different. IMO, in a team, creating the HTML and CSS is a responsibility of the designer. The developers…

Probably you never met amazing designers that can't even put a "." at the end of their sentences.

People are different, with different mind, and intelligences. Forcing such a designer to "code" is just going to destroy his skillset, that otherwise would be of great use in a good and collaborative team. :)

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#18

Post by mgkimsal »

endtwist wrote: post #11
mgkimsal wrote: post #3

Yay - designer/developer "teams". Sounds fair enough, but it's gotta work both ways. You as a designer need to be flexible. If I as a developer say "that can't be done within the given time/budget/constraints", you'll need to rework or rethink some of your precious design. I as a developer need to sometimes do some more research to make sure something can, in fact, be done, instead of relying on 10 year old preconcep…

Design is not about the tools you use, and development is not about the code you write. Developers can learn design fundamentals (and I mean really basic "what's the idea behind this color/element/typographic decision?") without touching Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. Similarly, designers can learn about what is and isn't possible, without learning to code, through research about the existing technologies and their use…

"designers can learn about what is and isn't possible, without learning to code"

Depends on what we mean by 'code'. I don't expect designers to understand javascript, php, java, .net or whatever.

I do expect someone who bills themselves as a web designer to understand the basic fundamentals of CSS, what works on various browsers, gradeful degradation strategies, etc. I don't really think you can do web design successfully without understanding them, and I've never met anyone who really understands them who didn't also actually code html/css from scratch, at least at some point in their career.

It's probably possible to just read about it without opening an editor, but probably far less effective.

And re: developers - getting some understanding about colors, shapes, fonts, sizing, etc, to understand why some decisions are reached will definitely give a new appreciation for good design, and can help in other projects in the future where perhaps a good designer isn't available. I've stolen quite a few tricks from some designers I've worked with, and as time goes by I get better and using those tricks together in concert to make stuff that doesn't suck too bad.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#19

Post by krmmalik »

I got about a quarter way through the article and gave up reading. The reasoning cited is pretty poor. I was someone that used to think i could never code because my brain wasnt wired that way, but yet here i am, coding. Its given better insight into what issues and constraints programmers face.

This whole pigeon-holing exercise is just a complete farce. Far better to know a little about everything than everything about a little.

Its really not as a big a deal as people are making out.

Re: The “designers should code” bullshit and a not so new idea

#20

Post by folletto »

ilcavero wrote: post #12
jinushaun wrote: post #8

I disagree. Just to be clear, we're talking web design here in HTML/CSS, not actual programming in JavaScript or Ruby. HTML/CSS creates designs, just like pencils create sketches and paint brushes create painting. Sure, it's hard, but watercolor and oil painting is also hard and has to be learned. Web design is no different. IMO, in a team, creating the HTML and CSS is a responsibility of the designer. The developers…

I agree with you, what's next after this? designers that can't use photoshop because it is not part of their intelligence type? HTML/CSS is the designers medium and they have to learn how to use it just as a painter needs to learn how to use paintbrushes or a film director needs to learn how to use a camera.

Don't worry, there's nothing "after this". "Designers should code" exists only in the web design field. It's fair to suggest that "Designers that can code are better", but it's not a must in any way. That's the point. :)
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