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China shows its true colours – and they're not pretty

thetimes.co.uk

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Re: China shows its true colours – and they're not pretty

#11

Post by xwolfi »

nyokodo wrote: post #8
xwolfi wrote: post #6

It's another discussion on the HK election reforms, which probably would not have happened without all the media hysteria 2 years ago. We'll see, I predict people either wont vote or vote blank and the gov'll have to do a crazy dance to explain it - or people will vote and it'll be brushed away by the media. The communists are ruthless when we complain, and we're brainwashed if we don't - there's no way we'd approach…

> there's no way we'd approach this as a complex multi factor and multi opinion problem. No country I’m aware of really nails free and fair elections. There’s always some kind of third party acting as gatekeeper that makes it difficult or impossible for absolutely any candidate to win who the electorate might want. But, countries fall on a spectrum of how well they approximate this ideal. It’s pretty clear that an el…

The key difference between China and the rest of the elective systems is: do they even consider voting as a positive feedback loop?

As long as we dont convince (and as a "small" city, we cant force, only convince) them that it s in their own interest to let us support, or midly criticize them by voting, they'll go backward and decide for us. And they may not even take bad decisions, just remove ownership from the local population which for me is key to buy into the policies.

Most democracies manage well the dance between "we ll only propose policies that make sense" and "people can vote freely". We have to learn that too.

Re: China shows its true colours – and they're not pretty

#12

Post by mdp2021 »

samuraifox1 wrote: post #9

These UK news always portray Asian giants in bad news. I dont believe them blindly.

The subtle difference between wisdom and manipulation: "Repeat after me: you shall inquire and criticize all thoughts" vs "Repeat after me: you shall retract trust from all thoughts" - instil activity or instil passivity.

Edit: silent downvoting snipers confirm the stated idea (the nuance being productive vs depaupering).

Re: China shows its true colours – and they're not pretty

#13

Post by mdp2021 »

xwolfi wrote: post #11
nyokodo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's no way we'd approach this as a complex multi factor and multi opinion problem. No country I’m aware of really nails free and fair elections. There’s always some kind of third party acting as gatekeeper that makes it difficult or impossible for absolutely any candidate to win who the electorate might want. But, countries fall on a spectrum of how well they approximate this ideal. It’s pretty clear that an el…

The key difference between China and the rest of the elective systems is: do they even consider voting as a positive feedback loop? As long as we dont convince (and as a "small" city, we cant force, only convince) them that it s in their own interest to let us support, or midly criticize them by voting, they'll go backward and decide for us. And they may not even take bad decisions, just remove ownership from the loc…

> do they even consider voting as a positive feedback loop

To some material I have read (probably a TED talk), value is given to feedback, but it is top-down in evaluation (strong reliance on performance reports of/on officials) and made through surveys (instead of voting) in the bottom-up side.

I think it could have been: Eric X. Li, "A tale of two political systems" (Jul 2013), https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_x_li_a_tale_of_two_political_... : «[...] Adaptability, meritocracy, and legitimacy are the three defining characteristics of China's one-party system [...]»

The TED website has a categorization of topics, so there exist a collection: https://www.ted.com/talks?topics[]=china

Re: China shows its true colours – and they're not pretty

#14

Post by thuccess129 »

gentleman11 wrote: post #7
xwolfi wrote: post #6

It's another discussion on the HK election reforms, which probably would not have happened without all the media hysteria 2 years ago. We'll see, I predict people either wont vote or vote blank and the gov'll have to do a crazy dance to explain it - or people will vote and it'll be brushed away by the media. The communists are ruthless when we complain, and we're brainwashed if we don't - there's no way we'd approach…

Calling them reforms is unfair. They removed free elections and replaced them with a “pick whoever you want as long as it’s one of these people we choose” system

The problem with a pick whoever you want approach is that inside players game the system and you end up with a table top sized voting form. Pick one above the line from out of seven or number all your choice from 1 to 49 below the line is a workable approach. Owners of the media, religiocults and background radiation vantablack money tilt the playing field on West's Democracies.

Re: China shows its true colours – and they're not pretty

#15

Post by mdp2021 »

thuccess129 wrote: post #14
gentleman11 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling them reforms is unfair. They removed free elections and replaced them with a “pick whoever you want as long as it’s one of these people we choose” system

The problem with a pick whoever you want approach is that inside players game the system and you end up with a table top sized voting form. Pick one above the line from out of seven or number all your choice from 1 to 49 below the line is a workable approach. Owners of the media, religiocults and background radiation vantablack money tilt the playing field on West's Democracies.

What are you trying to express? Because if the idea is "Interested entity I can influence administrator A", the possibility could be stronger "without mechanisms of control from P, the public".

Re: China shows its true colours – and they're not pretty

#16

Post by xwolfi »

mdp2021 wrote: post #13
xwolfi wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key difference between China and the rest of the elective systems is: do they even consider voting as a positive feedback loop? As long as we dont convince (and as a "small" city, we cant force, only convince) them that it s in their own interest to let us support, or midly criticize them by voting, they'll go backward and decide for us. And they may not even take bad decisions, just remove ownership from the loc…

> do they even consider voting as a positive feedback loop To some material I have read (probably a TED talk), value is given to feedback, but it is top-down in evaluation (strong reliance on performance reports of/on officials) and made through surveys (instead of voting) in the bottom-up side. I think it could have been: Eric X. Li, " A tale of two political systems " (Jul 2013), https://www.ted.com/talks/eric_x_li…

Yeah it's funny because while I would agree the communists have shown adaptability (hey we still kinda vote in HK and they just today told us to "cast our sacred ballot", impressive gymnastics), I think meritocracy and legitimacy need more work.

Meritocracy is difficult because it means you d have to tolerate a certain amount of conflict from the competent bottom towards the rotting top like everything and that's difficult when you're built so top down as the communist party. They tend to prioritize loyalty to truth and just like a Church, suffer dire consequence when the odd loyal corrupt is discovered.

As for legitimacy, I really dont see it until an alternative, even virtual like in the US, is presented and a choice made. We would have very diff problems with Beijing in HK if they had a believable legitimacy: we d have a lot more people defending the country against the localists instead of what we have now: localists, people defending the country against the localists AND the communists, and people defending the communists OVER the country.

Or to give a US example people in HN could understand: if you have separatists in Texas asking why they even need a federation, people wouldnt pinpoint the democrats or the republicans as stealing the true meaning of the country and join the texan localists in trying to split away to find something more legitimate. Which is what split families in HK currently.

Re: China shows its true colours – and they're not pretty

#18

Post by mdp2021 »

quiffledwerg wrote: post #17
samuraifox1 wrote: post #9

These UK news always portray Asian giants in bad news. I dont believe them blindly.

Newly created CCP 50 cent army account doing its job.

The uttering 'I dont believe them blindly' could be literal (there is always a chance), but/yet it is very much the language that an attemptive manipulator could adopt. Suggesting some kind of animal "adoption of stance through imitation of the acting wise". I was surprised to see, in this context, in the past few years, some clearly absurd pieces of communication that comprised images of ignorance and images of "revealing" knowledge.

This given, q., let us not forget the guidelines, «Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like».

The "political interest" is out of here, this is a place for debate on intellectually relevant topics. The interest here (specifically to these "theoretical suggestions" the new account/member triggered) is in language, response, awareness of the instruments, intellectual processes, intellectual productivity.

Re: China shows its true colours – and they're not pretty

#19

Post by xwolfi »

mdp2021 wrote: post #18
quiffledwerg wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Newly created CCP 50 cent army account doing its job.

The uttering 'I dont believe them blindly' could be literal (there is always a chance), but/yet it is very much the language that an attemptive manipulator could adopt. Suggesting some kind of animal "adoption of stance through imitation of the acting wise". I was surprised to see, in this context, in the past few years, some clearly absurd pieces of communication that comprised images of ignorance and images of "rev…

And I mean, it's true for a lot of places. When I lived in France and there was some riot, my american friends called me asking how I was, afraid for my life because of the CNN loop, and now that I live in HK, I have german friends, tourists not even residents, who send to american frigging senators worried email asking to sanction our oppressors because of the same kind of news loop.

China over reacted and is not doing the right thing ... yet. It's not finished, the Earth is still rotating, it's still our country too, we'll find another way to express our discontent. What doesn't help is the news loop constantly exciting the debate to irrationality.

I think you dont need a CCP shill to say "they always say the same thing, I dont trust them blindly". This should even be said of Xinhua :D

Re: China shows its true colours – and they're not pretty

#20

Post by mdp2021 »

xwolfi wrote: post #19
mdp2021 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The uttering 'I dont believe them blindly' could be literal (there is always a chance), but/yet it is very much the language that an attemptive manipulator could adopt. Suggesting some kind of animal "adoption of stance through imitation of the acting wise". I was surprised to see, in this context, in the past few years, some clearly absurd pieces of communication that comprised images of ignorance and images of "rev…

And I mean, it's true for a lot of places. When I lived in France and there was some riot, my american friends called me asking how I was, afraid for my life because of the CNN loop, and now that I live in HK, I have german friends, tourists not even residents, who send to american frigging senators worried email asking to sanction our oppressors because of the same kind of news loop. China over reacted and is not do…

> we'll find another way to express our discontent

Well xwolfi, in another post you wrote «from the competent bottom towards the rotting top»: Hong Kong is to some statistics a place of the highest concentration for well trained minds, education, competence - it may be really disappointing to those with a "technical" more than "emotional" idea of democracy, that in one of the few places in which people show numbers to really deserve the responsibility of judgement and administration, their participation is limited. For a condition like "you can participate provided you are aligned", strong intellectual skills are probably largely wasted.

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