The Universal Structure of Storytelling • Hacker News Board

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#11

Post by bsedlm » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

gota wrote: post #8

A bit unrelated to the article - An (initial) portion of my academic experience was researching Interactive Storytelling systems[1]. I was particularly interested in the methods for ensuring certain qualities of the plots, and modeled some constraint solving problems - but I did had the absolutely outstanding opportunity to interact with researchers in this area, and to read the seminal works on plot structure, Aarne…

I like to think (based on my shallow understanding of technical aspects of stories) that the basic formula of the hero's journey (a hero goes somewhere else and brings back some kind of change) is a general scheme to codify how to change things

Ramping up the abstraction (generality) to 11:

the hero is in a home (A) the hero goes on an adventure (->) the hero returns home but things have changed (B)

i.e. A -> B

It is probably useful to turn down the generality a little bit for this to be more usefull; but I'm most certainly NOT a storyteller.

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#12

Post by slowmovintarget » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:19 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #6

> From one point of view, it’s obvious that, despite exceptions, most stories portray “goody-baddy” dynamics—from nursery rhymes to juicy gossip, from ancient folktales to Holy Scripture, from lowbrow reality shows to award-winning documentaries. The question is, why? Because they are all, actually, from the same culture, as becomes obvious when reading the article. The author is a little quick to call this universal…

I'd disagree with your characterization of Greek Mythology. There are "goodies," they just are not viewed that way through the lens of modern values.

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#13

Post by bsedlm » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:20 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #7

> The golden rule of hunter-gather life is pretty simple: Oh please. There are at least as many "hunter-gather lives" as there are tribes, and probably more, and it's very likely the author knows about none of them. This is rubbish of the highest order.

so the author said something which can be nitpicked, therefore the entire article is rubbish?

I guess we all do this to a certain extent given that there's so much content to parse through and anything that will allow us to quickly dismiss something lets us use that energy for something else

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#14

Post by watwut » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

bsedlm wrote: post #4

I wouldn't say that this article is about the universal structure of stories, it's really about the universal purpose (or reason) common to stories in most (all?) cultures. IMO, the universal structural aspect is about how to tell good stories (hero's journey and such), however this article is actually about how storytelling in all cultures brings us together as a group and the actual universal about stories describe…

For it to be "all cultures", one would need to spend more time in cultures different then our own.

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#15

Post by bambax » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:30 PM UTC

bsedlm wrote: post #13

bambax wrote: post #7

> The golden rule of hunter-gather life is pretty simple: Oh please. There are at least as many "hunter-gather lives" as there are tribes, and probably more, and it's very likely the author knows about none of them. This is rubbish of the highest order.

so the author said something which can be nitpicked, therefore the entire article is rubbish? I guess we all do this to a certain extent given that there's so much content to parse through and anything that will allow us to quickly dismiss something lets us use that energy for something else

> so the author said something which can be nitpicked, therefore the entire article is rubbish?

I'm sorry, but yes. This shows the author wasn't thinking and is intellectually lazy and incurious -- like if he was laying out bigoted theories in the first paragraph, and making whole deductions out of it.

This is actually bigoted, by the way: to declare that there is just one way to live the life of a hunter-gatherer, and that it's "simple".

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#16

Post by jacknews » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

I find many popular shows are quite moralistic, but I'm not sure if that's cause or effect. Are they popular because we like moralistic stories, or because story-tellers want to moralize us? Many 'indie' shows, often European, are much more ambiguous and reflective of real life.

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#17

Post by mistermann » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #15

bsedlm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so the author said something which can be nitpicked, therefore the entire article is rubbish? I guess we all do this to a certain extent given that there's so much content to parse through and anything that will allow us to quickly dismiss something lets us use that energy for something else

> so the author said something which can be nitpicked, therefore the entire article is rubbish? I'm sorry, but yes. This shows the author wasn't thinking and is intellectually lazy and incurious -- like if he was laying out bigoted theories in the first paragraph, and making whole deductions out of it. This is actually bigoted, by the way: to declare that there is just one way to live the life of a hunter-gatherer, a…

As I see it (as someone fascinated with this phenomenon), this is somewhat of an example of what the author is talking about.

The claim:

>> The golden rule of hunter-gather life is pretty simple

...post-processing, is perceived as:

> There are at least as many "hunter-gather lives" as there are tribes, and probably more, and it's very likely the author knows about none of them.

...dropping "the golden rule of".

Ironically, this is followed up with:

> This shows the author wasn't thinking and is intellectually lazy and incurious -- like if he was [laying out bigoted theories in the first paragraph], and making whole deductions out of it.

I wrote more about a theory I have about this phenomenon in a recent thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29430192

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#18

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #15

bsedlm wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so the author said something which can be nitpicked, therefore the entire article is rubbish? I guess we all do this to a certain extent given that there's so much content to parse through and anything that will allow us to quickly dismiss something lets us use that energy for something else

> so the author said something which can be nitpicked, therefore the entire article is rubbish? I'm sorry, but yes. This shows the author wasn't thinking and is intellectually lazy and incurious -- like if he was laying out bigoted theories in the first paragraph, and making whole deductions out of it. This is actually bigoted, by the way: to declare that there is just one way to live the life of a hunter-gatherer, a…

[deleted]

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#19

Post by Jun8 » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

Interesting read! Here's the the template mentioned for powerful antagonists:

“Antagonists should be hyper-individualistic bullies. They should threaten the social order and induce righteous indignation in protagonists, incentivizing them and their peers to band together, fight back, and finally affirm their prosocial values.”

I disagree. The above describes someone like a Bond villain, which are easily dealt with, or whose legacy quickly dissipates after they are dead. The really dangerous antagonist is one who creates powerful memes and bands together their followers against the established order.

Defining them this way dissociates antagonists from simplistic , because the "evil" antagonist of today is tomorrow's charismatic leader, as happens many times in life.

Re: The Universal Structure of Storytelling

#20

Post by bsedlm » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

jedimastert wrote: post #9

bambax wrote: post #6

> From one point of view, it’s obvious that, despite exceptions, most stories portray “goody-baddy” dynamics—from nursery rhymes to juicy gossip, from ancient folktales to Holy Scripture, from lowbrow reality shows to award-winning documentaries. The question is, why? Because they are all, actually, from the same culture, as becomes obvious when reading the article. The author is a little quick to call this universal…

This is a huge problem when you see discussions on music theory as well; claims that things like Pythagorean 12 tone scales are "universal" because of the simplicity of the ratios. My favorite is the claims of the universality of divisive rhythm; where larger units (measures, phrases, the like) are subdivided into equal portions and those subdivisions are the building blocks of all rhythm ever. I think music educatio…

https://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/prelude.html

this work claims that the 12 tones system (IMO not a scale) seems "universal" is in fact so widespread because of the timbres in the instruments used (i.e. the haromic spectrum of strings, wind instruments, and human voice, etc).