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Weird English

nationalreview.com

11–20 of 110 posts

Re: Weird English

#11
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. I greatly enjoyed the recent Jeopardy category, "BOOK TITLES EN FRANCAIS". Essentially, "What is the English name of the novel when given the French title?" I aced it. Can I speak French? Hardly. Has enough Latin, Spanish, French, Italian, and other bits of Romantic verbiage seeped into my brain seemingly via osmosis over the course of my 3.5 decades to allow me to read basic French? Surprisingly, even to me,…

Many European languages are interlinked like that. I found learning a bit of Latin on top of my passable English and my native Swedish opened up romance languages to a honestly pretty crazy degree. Knowing the simple glue-words like demonstratives, pronouns and interrogatives means I can get the gist of it in a way I couldn't before. In a strange way looking at these languages feels like looking like the close relati…

Swedish brought in a big corpus of words from French though (native English, passable Swedish, school French), due to diplomatic relations in the 1700s. So, e.g.

Army: Danish hær, Norwegian hær, Swedish armé, French armée

Ice-cream: Danish is, Norwegian is, Swedish glass, French glace

Arm-chair: Danish lænestol, Norwegian lenestol, Swedish fåtölj, French fauteuil

Window: Danish vindue, Norwegian vindu, Swedish fönster, French fenêtre

(of course, a bunch of French also made its way into Danish and Norwegian as well. And the pronunciation is not always obvious either with French loanwords. I shocked my partner once while waiting at Postnord by saying out loud “Säger man kön (hard k) eller kön (soft k)?”)

Re: Weird English

#12
English is a beautiful slow motion car crash of multiple languages & influences and the result is a great language but I do pity anyone trying to learn it. When I was having difficulty learning the rules & oddities of another language, it really helped me to look back at English and remember that there are so many oddities, inconsistencies and variances, that most other European languages are easy to master in comparison.

Re: Weird English

#13
post #8

What I find interesting is that English speakers will rather invent a new language than use an already existing one. Klingon, Dothraki, the belter language in "The expanse" - all tv shows try hard to create something new. And I dont think politics is the reason here.

Wouldn't it break the illusion if Klingons and Dothraki just happened to speak a real Earth language?

And Belter is meant to be an English-based creole, reflecting the in-book/in-show history of the Belters as the descendants of speakers of several different languages who needed a lingua franca.

Re: Weird English

#14
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that make you especially dislike the "intentional meddling" of "snobs" on English? Look at the word "island" and you might think it comes from the Latin "isle". This is a false etymology created by "snobs" who considered "yland" to be a corruption of the Latin, rather than a word with Proto-Germanic roots.

>This is a false etymology created by "snobs" who considered "yland" to be a corruption of the Latin, rather than a word with Proto-Germanic roots. Do you have a reference for the top-down-because-of-snob-ness rather than more organic cross-polination/interference of similar words? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/island#Etymology gives it as being due to interference from the French-derived 'isle' (rather than from La…

I used the term "snob" in quotes because that's the term used in the linked-to article. Here are the relevant parts:

> Okrent mostly attributes English’s idiosyncrasies to the barbarians, the French, the printing press, and what she calls “the snobs.” ...

> At other times, standardization was deliberate. Those whom Okrent labels “snobs,” primarily 18th-century linguists, publishers, and pedants addicted to “intentional meddling,” consciously manipulated the language. Their meddling included the introduction of the supposedly sophisticated silent letters in doubt, indict, receipt, and salmon, as well as the Hellenized spellings of medical terms that originated as diaria, asma¸ and fleume.

Nearly all sources I can find point to that same Etymonline entry.

My understanding is more like https://www.quora.com/Which-language-is-responsible-for-the-... :

> British pedants, making a wrong guess, as they often did. Surprisingly, isle and island do not have the same origin. ...

> Isle comes from the French île (courtesy of the Normans). In Middle English it was spelled ile or ille. ..

> This ultimately comes from the Latin insula, and in Renaissance France some pedants tried to change it to isle, but ultimately failed. ...

> British pedants had more success, having decided that spellings should indicate classical origins at the expense of pronunciation. This had the advantage that it made spelling harder for those without the benefit of a classical education, and provided an opportunity for schoolboys to mock their lesser colleagues.

> They had some justification for isle (though it was a stupid rule). However, they also changed iland to island, incorrectly assuming common origins.

The "indicate classical origins" is from the (false) belief that this word came from Latin.

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/349393/dictionar... quotes the OED as:

> The ordinary Middle English and early modern English form was iland, yland. ... In 15th cent. the first part of the word began to be associated with the synonymous ile, yle (of French origin), and sometimes analytically written ile-land; and when ile was spelt isle, iland erroneously followed it as isle-land, island; the latter spelling became established as the current form before 1700.

Re: Weird English

#15
post #12

English is a beautiful slow motion car crash of multiple languages & influences and the result is a great language but I do pity anyone trying to learn it. When I was having difficulty learning the rules & oddities of another language, it really helped me to look back at English and remember that there are so many oddities, inconsistencies and variances, that most other European languages are easy to master in compar…

I sympathise with the view (non-native English speaker from Europe).

While it's true English has a ton of inconsistencies, complications etc. they tend to happen at a slightly higher level I think. There is a reasonably big subset of English that is quite easy.

French and German, not to mention Polish, are much harder to learn IMO, since the difficulties are up-front. Some examples:

- French conjugation of verbs is a whole world of its own

- German has noun cases, and you have to remember what verb comes with which cases

- Tenses in English are quite nicely organised into a Cartesian product of {past, present, future} x {simple, perfect, continuous}. It's fiddly to learn which one to use, but it's a plug-and-play use after that. By contrast, French has similar tenses, but spread around (not homomorphic to the nice Cartesian product, if you like). Plus, agreeing tenses ("sequence of tenses" apparently), OMG

- Nouns are non-gendered in English, and gendered in most European languages. Yes, a ship is a she, and referring to people or animals you use he/she etc. but in Polish and French, every word has a hidden, often undeducible gender you just have to know. Can't remember if German has rules for noun gender.

- English is very economical with words; nouns, derived verbs and adjectives are often the same word (e.g. "speed" the noun and "to speed", i.e. drive too fast). No such luck other side of the Channel. Similarly, "mouse"+"trap" -> "mousetrap". In French -> "piege a souris" ("trap for mouse").

- Comparing to Polish is a bit futile, but let's just mention nasty things English doesn't have: double numbers, in addition to singular and plural (one hen, two hens, ten hens will be "[one] kura", "[two] kury", "[ten] kur"), verb aspect (whether an action is completed or not), 7 noun cases, 22 conjugation groups, stem mutation on conjugation and inflection), nouns conjugate differently by gender, and of course genders have to be agreed between nouns and adjectives... just to name a few :)

Re: Weird English

#16
post #8

What I find interesting is that English speakers will rather invent a new language than use an already existing one. Klingon, Dothraki, the belter language in "The expanse" - all tv shows try hard to create something new. And I dont think politics is the reason here.

Tolkien also invented at least three full languages (Elvish, Orkish, Dwarvish). Though I believe he was well-versed in languages in the world so it's not learning laziness from his side.

Re: Weird English

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many European languages are interlinked like that. I found learning a bit of Latin on top of my passable English and my native Swedish opened up romance languages to a honestly pretty crazy degree. Knowing the simple glue-words like demonstratives, pronouns and interrogatives means I can get the gist of it in a way I couldn't before. In a strange way looking at these languages feels like looking like the close relati…

Swedish brought in a big corpus of words from French though (native English, passable Swedish, school French), due to diplomatic relations in the 1700s. So, e.g. Army: Danish hær, Norwegian hær, Swedish armé, French armée Ice-cream: Danish is, Norwegian is, Swedish glass, French glace Arm-chair: Danish lænestol, Norwegian lenestol, Swedish fåtölj, French fauteuil Window: Danish vindue, Norwegian vindu, Swedish fönste…

Nitpick - some of the variations between Swedish and Norwegian is because Swedish and Norwegian ended up with different words from Middle Low German, i.e. the differences stem back from the Hansa period, and not as late as the French relations of the 1700s. So, "fönster", for example, didn't get picked from French, it's from Middle Low German "vinster" (which became "finster, fynster" and then "fönster" in Swedish). In this case the Middle Low German word replaced the older Swedish word (which did have the same origin as the current Danish and Norwegian words for "window"), but that replacement didn't happen in Norwegian/Danish (in other cases one or both did pick up a word from Middle Low German, but it may have been a different word because the traders in Bergen weren't the same ones which operated in Sweden).

Re: Weird English

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many European languages are interlinked like that. I found learning a bit of Latin on top of my passable English and my native Swedish opened up romance languages to a honestly pretty crazy degree. Knowing the simple glue-words like demonstratives, pronouns and interrogatives means I can get the gist of it in a way I couldn't before. In a strange way looking at these languages feels like looking like the close relati…

Swedish brought in a big corpus of words from French though (native English, passable Swedish, school French), due to diplomatic relations in the 1700s. So, e.g. Army: Danish hær, Norwegian hær, Swedish armé, French armée Ice-cream: Danish is, Norwegian is, Swedish glass, French glace Arm-chair: Danish lænestol, Norwegian lenestol, Swedish fåtölj, French fauteuil Window: Danish vindue, Norwegian vindu, Swedish fönste…

> And the pronunciation is not always obvious either with French loanwords.

Or the spelling. I mean, I know how the letters are pronounced, so I can see that fåtölj is actually a good transcription, but visually it bears no resemblance whatsoever with fauteuil.

I have found that French words that ended up in English were actually quite difficult to recognise in a conversation, even though they are written exactly as in French most of the time.

I guess it’s related to the great vowel shift (but not only, even consonants are weird), but English really is weird compared to a lot of continental European languages. For example, a /r/ sounds like a /r/ in anything from Spanish to Finnish. Granted, there are differences in prononciation, but it is still not distorted beyond recognition. Nothing that comes close to the utterly bizarre prononciation of the /r/ in /iron/.

Re: Weird English

#19
post #12

English is a beautiful slow motion car crash of multiple languages & influences and the result is a great language but I do pity anyone trying to learn it. When I was having difficulty learning the rules & oddities of another language, it really helped me to look back at English and remember that there are so many oddities, inconsistencies and variances, that most other European languages are easy to master in compar…

From my perspective, despite inconsistencies it's one of the easier languages to learn at a basic level as you can ramp up and start using a working subset of it pretty quickly. German in comparison has a steep up-front learning curve and requires a lot of investment to get anything out of.

Re: Weird English

#20
post #12

English is a beautiful slow motion car crash of multiple languages & influences and the result is a great language but I do pity anyone trying to learn it. When I was having difficulty learning the rules & oddities of another language, it really helped me to look back at English and remember that there are so many oddities, inconsistencies and variances, that most other European languages are easy to master in compar…

I sympathise with the view (non-native English speaker from Europe). While it's true English has a ton of inconsistencies, complications etc. they tend to happen at a slightly higher level I think. There is a reasonably big subset of English that is quite easy. French and German, not to mention Polish, are much harder to learn IMO, since the difficulties are up-front. Some examples: - French conjugation of verbs is a…

> Tenses in English are quite nicely organised into a Cartesian product of {past, present, future} x {simple, perfect, continuous}.

http://esl.fis.edu/grammar/rules/future.htm comments that the future tense "is a very difficult aspect of English grammar", with several different forms:

- auxiliary verb will for predictions/statements of fact ("The sun will rise at 6.30 tomorrow")

- auxiliary verb going to for intentions ("We're going to buy a new car next month.")

- present continuous for arrangements; arrangement = a plan for the future that you have already thought about and discussed with someone else. ("I'm meeting my mother at the airport tomorrow")

- present simple for scheduled events ("The train departs in 10 minutes.")

That's in addition to the future continuous ("Don't call me after 10 o'clock. I'll be sleeping." and future perfect ("I hope my mother will have finished cooking dinner by the time I get home.")

Your Cartesian doesn't include negatives, where English uses the auxiliary verb do. (Compare "I do not know Spanish." with "I know not Spanish".)

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