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Vaccum-chamber quantum sensor device could allow GPS-free navigation

breakingdefense.com

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Re: Vaccum-chamber quantum sensor device could allow GPS-free navigation

#11

Post by mynegation »

saboot wrote: post #7
yetanother-1 wrote: post #4

Yes, but how will it determine its position without a reference, I read the article and missed that concept.

I'm also confused by this, does it get set a reference point once? If so what is the accuracy degradation, is it fixed over time or acceleration? If it's updated periodically what does that system look like? Is the advantage that it can manage on its own "offline" for a usable period, unlike GPS which needs an active connection?

All great questions, but I suspect the answers are classified.

Re: Vaccum-chamber quantum sensor device could allow GPS-free navigation

#12

Post by dogma1138 »

jonplackett wrote: post #10
Snoozus wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like dead reckoning works today, you start from a known point at known attitude and integrate up accelerations and rotations to keep an up to date position. Whenever you can get a GPS signal you use that to reduce the drift. Cheap systems can do this for seconds, 10k$ buys you 15minutes (MEMS), 100k an hour (laser gyro), everything above is under export restrictions and NDAs so noone will tell you what the state…

The whole premise that this might be something in everyday use one day seems completely flawed. Even at the 1cm cube of physics it’s huge compared to GPS and it uses incredibly expensive materials. If you’re a nuclear submarine or stealth bomber it makes loads of sense. For anything else I don’t really get the point.

I recon that’s what said about solid state gyros and accelerometers, vibrating structure gyros were initially developed for the military now they are like a $1 a pop…

If this works I can’t see a reason why in 10-15 year you won’t be able to fit it on a single chip.

Re: Vaccum-chamber quantum sensor device could allow GPS-free navigation

#13

Post by tartoran »

aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #2

TLDR; Sandia researches dead reckoning with a new kind of atomic accelerometer and gyroscope. It has nothing to do with avocados, aside from someone comparing the device’s size to that of an avocado, and that was probably the only thing the journalist understood so they went with it…

I really appreciate the TLDR; Saved me and others quite a bit of time

Re: Vaccum-chamber quantum sensor device could allow GPS-free navigation

#14

Post by pixl97 »

gsliepen wrote: post #5
aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #2

TLDR; Sandia researches dead reckoning with a new kind of atomic accelerometer and gyroscope. It has nothing to do with avocados, aside from someone comparing the device’s size to that of an avocado, and that was probably the only thing the journalist understood so they went with it…

Indeed. Also, the old system apparently "needs thousands of volts of electricity," which is too much for airplanes, despite them heating food with microwave ovens which typically use > 10 kV to drive the klystrons that generate the microwaves.

I'm guessing they turn off the microwave when things go bad, like engines going offline and reducing total power generation to the aircraft.

Re: Vaccum-chamber quantum sensor device could allow GPS-free navigation

#15

Post by saboot »

saboot wrote: post #7
yetanother-1 wrote: post #4

Yes, but how will it determine its position without a reference, I read the article and missed that concept.

I'm also confused by this, does it get set a reference point once? If so what is the accuracy degradation, is it fixed over time or acceleration? If it's updated periodically what does that system look like? Is the advantage that it can manage on its own "offline" for a usable period, unlike GPS which needs an active connection?

Here's the press release from Sandia https://www.sandia.gov/labnews/2021/10/22/this-device-could-...

And the published paper it refers to https://avs.scitation.org/doi/10.1116/5.0053885

And I agree that the answers to my questions are probably not public, this is likely going to be very useful for things that go boom, in addition to a lot of other civilian applications.

Re: Vaccum-chamber quantum sensor device could allow GPS-free navigation

#16

Post by errcorrectcode »

How is this an improvement over other INS like LRG?

INS mechanisms suffer from the same problem: that they only detect linear or rotational acceleration. To reach position, double integration must be performed, which rapidly accumulates error (drift) because velocity and position both have to be maintained to calculate the next position.

Disclaimer: Trimble Nav alum

Re: Vaccum-chamber quantum sensor device could allow GPS-free navigation

#17

Post by mikewarot »

The 10kv power supply for an ion pump could be quite small, as the load current is proportional to leakage. The real innovation seems to be offering a small package without the voltage induced by the ion pump possibly effective the rest of the environment.

The actual paper itself would make it clear what the real advance is, but it's paywalled. 8(

Re: Vaccum-chamber quantum sensor device could allow GPS-free navigation

#18

Post by analog31 »

aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #2

TLDR; Sandia researches dead reckoning with a new kind of atomic accelerometer and gyroscope. It has nothing to do with avocados, aside from someone comparing the device’s size to that of an avocado, and that was probably the only thing the journalist understood so they went with it…

Looks more like the size of an oscillation overthruster.

Re: Vaccum-chamber quantum sensor device could allow GPS-free navigation

#19

Post by tialaramex »

gsliepen wrote: post #5
aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #2

TLDR; Sandia researches dead reckoning with a new kind of atomic accelerometer and gyroscope. It has nothing to do with avocados, aside from someone comparing the device’s size to that of an avocado, and that was probably the only thing the journalist understood so they went with it…

Indeed. Also, the old system apparently "needs thousands of volts of electricity," which is too much for airplanes, despite them heating food with microwave ovens which typically use > 10 kV to drive the klystrons that generate the microwaves.

To be fair the "thousands of volts of electricity" nonsense is in their own press release not just this fluffy article.

It's really hard to get the people writing for a lay audience to actually understand the difference between "Simpler for lay people to understand" and "Simply wrong". This is sort-of fine if you're making a Hollywood movie, but it makes serious research look pretty stupid. Unfortunately the rare person who understands and knows how to communicate this stuff to lay people is probably more valuable as a lecturer or in some management role than writing press releases :/

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