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Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

reuters.com

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Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#11

Post by cronix »

lumost wrote: post #7
rp1 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think both Citizen's United and the allowance of asymmetric trade with China (e.g. China's currency manipulation, IP theft, restrictions on companies operating in China, etc.) are both symptoms of a much larger problem. The U.S. is being dismantled by the capitalist / owner class for personal profit. Very few decisions are made in the government that promote the long-term health of the system. This trend spans the…

The underlying question is why? Surely this activity could have started in 1950,1920, 1890 or any other year. What change occurred that seemingly has removed any long term/societal concerns from the minds of leaders?

Getting off the gold standard and going to a fiat currency, and going into exponential debt ever since. It stagnated the middle class due to inflation and wages not keeping up (which would have caused more inflation). We needed cheap labor to make goods cheaper and more affordable for the stagnating middle class, so we made favorable trade deals that wiped out manufacturing, which exacerbated the problem. It's just a bunch of added negative feedback loops. Hold on.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#12

Post by spamizbad »

rp1 wrote: post #5
MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #3

I wonder if the onset of globalization and offshoring US factories to China on top of Citizens United will be remembered as the US's "Fall of Rome" moment. The US essentially allowed the government to be bought and paid for by foreign entities and is relying on said countries for most manufactured goods. So now the other country can essentially say "Our laws are your laws otherwise we're not going manufacture your go…

I think both Citizen's United and the allowance of asymmetric trade with China (e.g. China's currency manipulation, IP theft, restrictions on companies operating in China, etc.) are both symptoms of a much larger problem. The U.S. is being dismantled by the capitalist / owner class for personal profit. Very few decisions are made in the government that promote the long-term health of the system. This trend spans the…

Not a view I share but I think the general attitude of this so-called "owner" class roughly this: The average American isn't deserving enough of America's bounty, so why should they be entitled to any of it? If you want something you should work for it; you aren't entitled to it by place of birth.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#13

Post by rp1 »

spamizbad wrote: post #12
rp1 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think both Citizen's United and the allowance of asymmetric trade with China (e.g. China's currency manipulation, IP theft, restrictions on companies operating in China, etc.) are both symptoms of a much larger problem. The U.S. is being dismantled by the capitalist / owner class for personal profit. Very few decisions are made in the government that promote the long-term health of the system. This trend spans the…

Not a view I share but I think the general attitude of this so-called "owner" class roughly this: The average American isn't deserving enough of America's bounty, so why should they be entitled to any of it? If you want something you should work for it; you aren't entitled to it by place of birth.

Why, in your opinion, do countries exist at all then?

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#14

Post by redis_mlc »

lumost wrote: post #7
rp1 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think both Citizen's United and the allowance of asymmetric trade with China (e.g. China's currency manipulation, IP theft, restrictions on companies operating in China, etc.) are both symptoms of a much larger problem. The U.S. is being dismantled by the capitalist / owner class for personal profit. Very few decisions are made in the government that promote the long-term health of the system. This trend spans the…

The underlying question is why? Surely this activity could have started in 1950,1920, 1890 or any other year. What change occurred that seemingly has removed any long term/societal concerns from the minds of leaders?

You could argue that Nixon improved relations with China to counter-balance USSR influence during the Cold War.

It was obviously foolish to help China become an economic power since the CCP has been at war with the US since the end of WW2 (2 Taiwan Straits wars, 2 Korean wars, Vietnam war), largely driven by Maoist ideology. (The USSR was involved in stopping the Straits wars to prevent wider conflicts.)

(The USSR dealt with an aggressive CCP by obliterating their forces during a border conflict using overkill. The CCP doesn't understand anything less. The USSR also planned to use nuclear weapons on Beijing around 1969, but the US intervened.)

I followed outsourcing to China in the business press from about 1972 to 2000. I shook my head at the end of each article. But here we are.

What's important to realize is that both the CCP and Russia make public statements and:

1) they're either obviously hyperbolic or

2) they accurately represent their actual plans.

#2 is not well-understood by our politicians for some reason. Pompeo is one of the few people to get it, hence the US' very effective strategy for the CCP during the Trump administration.

Note that China has structural weaknesses that will diminish its power: they import 50% of their energy and food, and have a demographic problem that could cut their population in half. They also have serious flooding issues, with 100,000 questionable dams built since 1945.

And the US can currently only make one F-35 per week, while in WW2 the P-51 was literally stamped out.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#15

Post by rvba »

labster wrote: post #10
MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #3

I wonder if the onset of globalization and offshoring US factories to China on top of Citizens United will be remembered as the US's "Fall of Rome" moment. The US essentially allowed the government to be bought and paid for by foreign entities and is relying on said countries for most manufactured goods. So now the other country can essentially say "Our laws are your laws otherwise we're not going manufacture your go…

If it is the “fall of Rome moment”, I’m not exactly worried. It took nearly a millennium for Rome to fall — and even that depends on whether or not you consider the Holy Roman Empire or the Ottoman Empire to be true successor states.

So basically you dont care what happens when you die? Sounds like boomer logic.

"A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit."

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#16

Post by echelon »

I don't understand why America, long a champion of immigration, doesn't open the floodgates back up.

We could onshore factories and staff them from all over the world. Pay workers wages comparable to what they would get from working in factories at home (ie. not "US wages" since we can't compete on cost with China, Vietnam, etc.), but give them decent hours, a housing stipend, education for their kids, and a promise of US citizenship. Also offer them courses on American culture, English, etc. "Melting pot" rather than unsupported labor. We could make it really comfortable and attractive.

To incentivize business, we could offer zero taxes over the next fifty years to run factories domestically. Start with the critical pieces, and then build everything.

Growing beyond 300M would also dramatically increase our consumer base.

To keep natural born citizens from getting angry, we can offer tax incentives for people having children. We can pay kids $20/week to study and get good grades (not a bad idea - it especially incentivizes poorer kids!). We can also grant credits for kids that excel in math/science, music/art, sports/club, etc. Keep them engaged and growing.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#17

Post by VictorPath »

lumost wrote: post #7
rp1 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think both Citizen's United and the allowance of asymmetric trade with China (e.g. China's currency manipulation, IP theft, restrictions on companies operating in China, etc.) are both symptoms of a much larger problem. The U.S. is being dismantled by the capitalist / owner class for personal profit. Very few decisions are made in the government that promote the long-term health of the system. This trend spans the…

The underlying question is why? Surely this activity could have started in 1950,1920, 1890 or any other year. What change occurred that seemingly has removed any long term/societal concerns from the minds of leaders?

> Surely this activity could have started in 1950,1920, 1890

It did start in 1890. Read about the Populist Party, Cross of Gold speech, Pullman strike, Haymarket affair, US occupation of the Philippines. All of this started before the 19th century. In any old industrial city, check the date when the old national guard armories were built. Why did large, fortified national guard armories start popping up all over the industrialized parts of the country just before the turn of the 20th century?

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#18

Post by markdown »

echelon wrote: post #16

I don't understand why America, long a champion of immigration, doesn't open the floodgates back up. We could onshore factories and staff them from all over the world. Pay workers wages comparable to what they would get from working in factories at home (ie. not "US wages" since we can't compete on cost with China, Vietnam, etc.), but give them decent hours, a housing stipend, education for their kids, and a promise…

This sort of radical idea just can't get off the ground in the US two-party system. It would be too risky to invest in something so controversial that it could be reversed in less than four years.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#19

Post by someperson »

echelon wrote: post #16

I don't understand why America, long a champion of immigration, doesn't open the floodgates back up. We could onshore factories and staff them from all over the world. Pay workers wages comparable to what they would get from working in factories at home (ie. not "US wages" since we can't compete on cost with China, Vietnam, etc.), but give them decent hours, a housing stipend, education for their kids, and a promise…

OK so you get 50 million people from Africa, India and other parts of Asia.

Then what? What if half choose to immediately move to New York or Los Angeles to find a better job?

Are you planning on keeping the 50 million factory workers imprisoned as second-class citizens in mid-West factories for the first 5 years? 10 years?

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#20

Post by star-trek-fleet »

Nice example of how a foreign nation would exercise influence through business people. CCP saw the similar danger in Jack Ma and others, because of their natural tendency to align closer to US value (because they are capitalists), and their companies' listing on US stock exchange.

It's only now that CCP start to play the same game.

The rivalry between US and China is going to be interesting. I hope in the process other developing countries would gain much from these 2 big boys looking to influence people across the globe.

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