Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data • Hacker News Board

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#11

Post by birdman3131 » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

mettamage wrote: post #9

csours wrote: post #5

Disclaimer: I work for a Tesla competitor. To combat fundamental attribution error, whenever you read an article about Tesla, try replacing the word 'Tesla' with your least favorite car or consumer product company. 'Brand X' has a bunch of data about accidents, and they are motivated to not share all of it with authorities. When they do share data they are motivated to share the data that presents them in the best li…

Ohhh, I think this can be a generalized life hack! Thanks! First extension I see: do this with people :D

The issue with this is often there are reasons a person/manufacturer are more or less liked than others. Sometimes those reasons even matter.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#12

Post by PragmaticPulp » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

> The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be stored for over a year.

Tesla really seems to have an extreme amount of personal data capture combined with always-on remote access.

It’s fascinating to watch people swear off Amazon Echo and delete their Facebook over privacy concerns but then proudly drive around in a vehicle that records everything, stores everything, and gives opaque data access to the parent company. In this case, a parent company with a reputation for bending the rules to suit their needs.

Really goes to show how much the computing privacy debate is a matter of brand loyalties and each company’s position on the hype cycle more than anything else.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#13

Post by capableweb » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 2:32 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be stored for over a year. Tesla really seems to have an extreme amount of personal data capture combined with always-on remote access. It’s fascinating to watch people swear off Amazon Echo and delete their Facebook over privacy concerns but then proudly drive ar…

I agree with your general comment, but I don't think any of those things can be classified as "personal data". How are you gonna identify a user based on values from those parameters?

GDPR, while not perfect, describes "personal data" to be:

> The data subjects are identifiable if they can be directly or indirectly identified, especially by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or one of several special characteristics, which expresses the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, commercial, cultural or social identity of these natural persons.

https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#14

Post by Retric » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 2:39 PM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #13

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be stored for over a year. Tesla really seems to have an extreme amount of personal data capture combined with always-on remote access. It’s fascinating to watch people swear off Amazon Echo and delete their Facebook over privacy concerns but then proudly drive ar…

I agree with your general comment, but I don't think any of those things can be classified as "personal data". How are you gonna identify a user based on values from those parameters? GDPR, while not perfect, describes "personal data" to be: > The data subjects are identifiable if they can be directly or indirectly identified, especially by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location…

Given enough of that data you should be able to trace which roads most users drive on and where they park their car. That seems like personal data to me. Don’t forget they should have a full database of VIN numbers they can already look up a list of owners.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#15

Post by Nextgrid » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #13

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be stored for over a year. Tesla really seems to have an extreme amount of personal data capture combined with always-on remote access. It’s fascinating to watch people swear off Amazon Echo and delete their Facebook over privacy concerns but then proudly drive ar…

I agree with your general comment, but I don't think any of those things can be classified as "personal data". How are you gonna identify a user based on values from those parameters? GDPR, while not perfect, describes "personal data" to be: > The data subjects are identifiable if they can be directly or indirectly identified, especially by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location…

Fingerprinting? There is research around identifying users purely based on their keystroke patterns which are apparently fairly unique. I wouldn't be surprised if driving (and probably a lot of other activities involving physical movements) has the same potential for fingerprinting.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#16

Post by ectopod » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #13

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be stored for over a year. Tesla really seems to have an extreme amount of personal data capture combined with always-on remote access. It’s fascinating to watch people swear off Amazon Echo and delete their Facebook over privacy concerns but then proudly drive ar…

I agree with your general comment, but I don't think any of those things can be classified as "personal data". How are you gonna identify a user based on values from those parameters? GDPR, while not perfect, describes "personal data" to be: > The data subjects are identifiable if they can be directly or indirectly identified, especially by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location…

From the preceding paragraph:

> Personal data are any information which are related to an identified or identifiable natural person.

Tesla already knows who you are so any data they capture is personal data.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#17

Post by tenuousemphasis » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

adfrhgeaq5hy wrote: post #8

ajross wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You wouldn't know that it would be possible to ask for more information, unless you knew they were collecting it. Only if Tesla purjured themselves during discovery. That's not the way court cases work. You can ask "Do you guys record the accelerometer data anywhere else but on the MCU?" and they have to answer truthfully. What you write here mostly amounts to a conspiracy theory. You're taking the idea that Tesla…

We know for a fact Tesla is doing something nefarious, i.e. the self driving scam. But I suppose Tesla isn't hiding anything nefarious. Most of their malfeasance is plain to see.

As someone who actually purchased FSD and has yet to receive it, it's not a scam. It's just a really hard problem that I think Tesla will solve before anyone else.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#18

Post by tenuousemphasis » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

>"That makes it interesting, because who is responsible for the following distance: the car or the driver?" said NFI investigator Aart Spek.

That's easy. The driver sets the autopilot follow distance.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#19

Post by nightski » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #12

> The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be stored for over a year. Tesla really seems to have an extreme amount of personal data capture combined with always-on remote access. It’s fascinating to watch people swear off Amazon Echo and delete their Facebook over privacy concerns but then proudly drive ar…

I've definitely been hesitant to buy a Tesla for exactly this reason. It's not clear if you can turn it off or avoid it by not using FSD either. It's a shame, would love to own one some day. But I'm guessing the option of buying a car that doesn't have this is slowly dying unfortunately. Consumers never win with this sort of stuff. The really ironic thing is that it is tied in with a more environmentally friendly car. Want to avoid being spied on? Then you need to use dirty fossil fuels.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#20

Post by lazide » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

tenuousemphasis wrote: post #17

adfrhgeaq5hy wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know for a fact Tesla is doing something nefarious, i.e. the self driving scam. But I suppose Tesla isn't hiding anything nefarious. Most of their malfeasance is plain to see.

As someone who actually purchased FSD and has yet to receive it, it's not a scam. It's just a really hard problem that I think Tesla will solve before anyone else.

If someone promises you’ll have it any day now, so you pay them a lot of money, but they delay it years and years - and you note it’s a really hard problem - at what point is it fraud?

Most legal precedent I’ve seen says a lot less time than they’ve already delayed it, frankly.