Reactive Clojure: A web language • Hacker News Board

Re: Reactive Clojure: A web language

#11

Post by mjburgess » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

InitialBP wrote: post #7

mjburgess wrote: post #4

Finally the problem which PHP solved more than two decades ago has been solved again. How do we include server-side code in client-side code? Do we build the client-side on the sever, and render? Why no, that would be PHP. Let's build the client-side in the browser, and rig a series of complex code-generating primitives disguised by the beauty of a language, to AJAX our way to a presumably good-enough solution. I thi…

Regardless of whether PHP solved this particular problem, it also caused a lot of its own due to numerous security issues and documentation that encouraged unsafe use of libraries, until recently.

The pragmatism of rasmus, and how bemused he was that people were using his language to program (vs. template), meant that the BDFL was not a great advocate of the PHP model.

The model is this: run-once-and-die + build-it-on-the-server.

Those two ideas are extremely powerful, a little like immutability, in that they rule out a huge number of issues. The issue with PHP wasn't this model which became associated with the morass of amateurs using the language. A shame.

Re: Reactive Clojure: A web language

#12

Post by tomconroy » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:34 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #4

Finally the problem which PHP solved more than two decades ago has been solved again. How do we include server-side code in client-side code? Do we build the client-side on the sever, and render? Why no, that would be PHP. Let's build the client-side in the browser, and rig a series of complex code-generating primitives disguised by the beauty of a language, to AJAX our way to a presumably good-enough solution. I thi…

Claiming "this is PHP" misses the point entirely, which is turning PHP-like templates into apps that can react to user input

Re: Reactive Clojure: A web language

#13

Post by disease » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:34 PM UTC

My arrow and page up/down keys do not work on this website. Very annoying.

Re: Reactive Clojure: A web language

#14

Post by jack_riminton » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:34 PM UTC

Can someone translate this for a relative web dev noob? or can anyone? which may be a better question

Re: Reactive Clojure: A web language

#15

Post by buryat » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:34 PM UTC

looks very overcomplicated for generating an html table, building something more powerful would result in even more complex code. There's a reason why these things get decoupled

Re: Reactive Clojure: A web language

#16

Post by pjlegato » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

marstall wrote: post #6

As a web developer with 25 years of experience and (I thought) up to the minute skills ... I have no idea what any of that means but it sounds cool and important and I want to try it.

It allows you to define a GUI / DOM specification, with transparently embedded serverside commands that do things like "query the database for the list of users who meet criteria X." No annotation or other special action required.

The runtime figures out an efficient and reactive way of parceling out work to the server as needed, and refreshing it only when necessary.

Re: Reactive Clojure: A web language

#17

Post by wrnr » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:36 PM UTC

Premature compositionally in the root of all evil, or something like that. I've looking for better ways to do document.createElement and addEventListener ever since the days of DHTML. Anyone looked into diagram theory already? The only productivity gain I've found is being fluent enough in your stack of choice to do the work to solve a problem and nothing more. And sure, spend the rest of your time researching diagram theory, but try to be honest about why you do it.

Re: Reactive Clojure: A web language

#18

Post by cosmotic » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #4

Finally the problem which PHP solved more than two decades ago has been solved again. How do we include server-side code in client-side code? Do we build the client-side on the sever, and render? Why no, that would be PHP. Let's build the client-side in the browser, and rig a series of complex code-generating primitives disguised by the beauty of a language, to AJAX our way to a presumably good-enough solution. I thi…

There's theoretically some performance benefit to rendering client side over ajax because the pages can be trivially cached, though you then run into the issue of pages being placeholders for a moment while the subsequent request(s!) run. Hence the UX anti-pattern of skeleton screens.

Re: Reactive Clojure: A web language

#19

Post by pbiggar » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

I'd love to know why any time I read something about clojure, it's inevitably cluttered with big words that the author (or some other clojurian) invented that have a lot of deep and important meaning, that make it impenetrable to anyone else.

Re: Reactive Clojure: A web language

#20

Post by darthrupert » Thu, Sep 23, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #4

Finally the problem which PHP solved more than two decades ago has been solved again. How do we include server-side code in client-side code? Do we build the client-side on the sever, and render? Why no, that would be PHP. Let's build the client-side in the browser, and rig a series of complex code-generating primitives disguised by the beauty of a language, to AJAX our way to a presumably good-enough solution. I thi…

Hate towards PHP has absolutely nothing to do with how easy web things are to deploy on it.