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Revisiting Java in 2021 – Part II

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Re: Revisiting Java in 2021 – Part II

#11

Post by dvdkon »

javajosh wrote: post #7

I use Java every day, but we're stuck with Java 8 because of the confusing and frankly scary licensing around later JDKs. I would love to move to 17 but I need something to show to the C-levels that gives them warm and fuzzies around the license. Does such a thing exist? EDIT: I find it quite depressing that so many want to attack people for being confused around Java licensing. I submit that it is confusing on its f…

Perhaps point out how many non-Oracle commercial JVM vendors exist? They might not trust Oracle to be sane, but Red Hat, Microsoft, SAP and Amazon are all very big names in the industry who offer their own JDK distributions, some of them also offer commercial support.

Re: Revisiting Java in 2021 – Part II

#12

Post by javajosh »

Gerardo1 wrote: post #9
javajosh wrote: post #7

I use Java every day, but we're stuck with Java 8 because of the confusing and frankly scary licensing around later JDKs. I would love to move to 17 but I need something to show to the C-levels that gives them warm and fuzzies around the license. Does such a thing exist? EDIT: I find it quite depressing that so many want to attack people for being confused around Java licensing. I submit that it is confusing on its f…

OpenJDK: "Oracle’s free, GPL-licensed, production-ready OpenJDK" I don't know what could be more convincing than an explicit open license.

The Oracle License FAQ is scary and opaque.

https://www.oracle.com/za/java/technologies/javase/jdk-faqs....

Re: Revisiting Java in 2021 – Part II

#13

Post by eganist »

Gerardo1 wrote: post #9
javajosh wrote: post #7

I use Java every day, but we're stuck with Java 8 because of the confusing and frankly scary licensing around later JDKs. I would love to move to 17 but I need something to show to the C-levels that gives them warm and fuzzies around the license. Does such a thing exist? EDIT: I find it quite depressing that so many want to attack people for being confused around Java licensing. I submit that it is confusing on its f…

OpenJDK: "Oracle’s free, GPL-licensed, production-ready OpenJDK" I don't know what could be more convincing than an explicit open license.

> OpenJDK: "Oracle’s free, GPL-licensed, production-ready OpenJDK" I don't know what could be more convincing than an explicit open license.

lack of enterprise support.

And also what javajosh said. Here's a(n arguably biased) corroboration: https://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/corporate-and-company-la...

Re: Revisiting Java in 2021 – Part II

#14

Post by dboreham »

The comments about Scala resonated. I've been working in a a large Scala codebase for the past few months. I've become a partial fan of the language, however: there have been multiple conversations like : (in screen share with colleague) "See that double right arrow there? What's that mean? (after attempts to find answer in books, SO, etc, and trying to guess based on the three/four other uses the language makes of double right arrow that I've already grokked). Colleague: "Uhh, dunno, beats me".

On reflection, I think if the Scala creators had been a bit less obsessed with symbology and had either a) used keywords rather than symbols more often or b) consistently only ever used a symbol for the same one purpose; the outcome would have been significantly better.

There are just too many symbols to cover them all in a short book or cheat sheet, and symbols are very SEO-unfriendly. And even if you do find the relevant medium article, it's not necessarily clear that you're looking at the same use case for that particular symbol.

Re: Revisiting Java in 2021 – Part II

#15

Post by filomeno »

eganist wrote: post #13
Gerardo1 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenJDK: "Oracle’s free, GPL-licensed, production-ready OpenJDK" I don't know what could be more convincing than an explicit open license.

> OpenJDK: "Oracle’s free, GPL-licensed, production-ready OpenJDK" I don't know what could be more convincing than an explicit open license. lack of enterprise support. And also what javajosh said. Here's a(n arguably biased) corroboration: https://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/corporate-and-company-la...

> lack of enterprise support.

You don't get that with Java 8 either, unless you are willing to pay for it. In that case, what's the difference between paying Oracle for support for Java 8 and newer releases?

Re: Revisiting Java in 2021 – Part II

#16

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

I think when Project Loom comes out that Kotlin on top of the JVM will be a tough combo to beat.

Kotlin is basically the language Java should be after 20 years of lessons learned, e.g. language-supported Optionals. The JVM is a battle tested platform. Once Project Loom comes out, you'll get the "best of both worlds" - the easier (i.e. "no functions 'colors'") programming model of multiple threads like in Java, but the scalability and performance of things like async in NodeJS.

Re: Revisiting Java in 2021 – Part II

#17

Post by [deleted] »

javajosh wrote: post #10
da39a3ee wrote: post #5

> There are ... many well-written books on how to program it effectively Would anyone be able to recommend a good resource for quickly learning modern Java for experienced programmers that already know, let's say, one of {Python,Javascript} AND one of {Go,Rust,C,C++}, but have zero JVM experience? (Ideally the resource would also teach some relevant things about the JVM itself rather than the Java language specifical…

Hmm. Great question. I've always liked Josh Bloch's "Effective Java" because it's targeted toward experienced programmers, and he expressed (correct) opinions about things like immutability. But the book is very old (2001). One way to get into it is to build something real, first on bare bones (e.g. 'javac Main.java; java Main'), then bare bones Maven, then finally pick a great starting project which itself curates s…

[deleted]

Re: Revisiting Java in 2021 – Part II

#18

Post by javajosh »

dvdkon wrote: post #11
javajosh wrote: post #7

I use Java every day, but we're stuck with Java 8 because of the confusing and frankly scary licensing around later JDKs. I would love to move to 17 but I need something to show to the C-levels that gives them warm and fuzzies around the license. Does such a thing exist? EDIT: I find it quite depressing that so many want to attack people for being confused around Java licensing. I submit that it is confusing on its f…

Perhaps point out how many non-Oracle commercial JVM vendors exist? They might not trust Oracle to be sane, but Red Hat, Microsoft, SAP and Amazon are all very big names in the industry who offer their own JDK distributions, some of them also offer commercial support.

Do you know what the legal relationship is between Red Hat and Oracle is? I think Oracle v Google has sent shivers of fear through anyone wanting to rely on Java, including through an intermediate, because the strength of the relationship is only as strong as the weakest link in the chain. In other words, what is the risk that Red Hat will be sued by Oracle someday over their use and support of Java?

Re: Revisiting Java in 2021 – Part II

#19

Post by vbezhenar »

da39a3ee wrote: post #5

> There are ... many well-written books on how to program it effectively Would anyone be able to recommend a good resource for quickly learning modern Java for experienced programmers that already know, let's say, one of {Python,Javascript} AND one of {Go,Rust,C,C++}, but have zero JVM experience? (Ideally the resource would also teach some relevant things about the JVM itself rather than the Java language specifical…

I don't have an answer to your question, but I would suggest the following:

skim over Java 5 syntax. It should be very easy to understand for anyone with programming experience.

Explore Java 8, 11, 17 features, but try to map all the syntax to Java 5, because those features usually are just a syntax sugar and I think that it's easier to understand those features this way.

Do not dive into standard library too much. It's vast and you can spend a lot of time studying it, but that's not necessary to start.

It should take few days of learning and experimenting.

After that you have to choose a framework, because Java applications are very framework-heavy ones. And that's where most of complexity comes from. People usually use Spring these days, so that's probably would be the most reasonable choice. There's no easy path, you'll struggle a lot and that's unavoidable. Modern Java Frameworks are full of hard to grasp concepts, tricky magic code and 20-year old roots buried in the depths of stacktraces.

Stackoverflow a lot, and you'll eventually naturally learn most things you need to know.

At some point I'd recommend to prepare for Oracle Java Certification (Oracle Certified Professional). It's a very good exam with lots of core Java topics and with some gained experience you'll structurize everything in your brain and you'll learn few things that avoided your attention before. I don't suggest to actually pass the exam, as that would cost some money and effort, so it's up for you to decide, but preparing to exam is very worthwhile time investment.

Re: Revisiting Java in 2021 – Part II

#20

Post by jatins »

eganist wrote: post #13
Gerardo1 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenJDK: "Oracle’s free, GPL-licensed, production-ready OpenJDK" I don't know what could be more convincing than an explicit open license.

> OpenJDK: "Oracle’s free, GPL-licensed, production-ready OpenJDK" I don't know what could be more convincing than an explicit open license. lack of enterprise support. And also what javajosh said. Here's a(n arguably biased) corroboration: https://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/corporate-and-company-la...

what does enterprise support mean in context of a programming language?
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