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The Threat from the Illiberal Left

economist.com

11–20 of 27 posts

Re: The Threat from the Illiberal Left

#11

The problem with identity politics is that no progress is made. You are never going to convince another identity that yours should get special treatment. Only when a group demands equal rights do we make progress, because there is never any good arguments why one group shouldn't have the same rights as others. Equality remains self evident.

Identity politics IS a demand for equality, based on the recognition that certain groups experience inequality in ways specific to them. For example, Black women are 3-4 times as likely to die from pregnancy related complications and twice as likely to lose an infant to premature death. A plea for that to be considered and rectified is not a desire for "special treatment," and in fact if it were to be changed that would almost certainly improve the United State's abysmal maternal healthcare FOR ALL WOMEN across the board. A rising tide lifts all boats, no?

Re: The Threat from the Illiberal Left

#12

The problem with identity politics is that no progress is made. You are never going to convince another identity that yours should get special treatment. Only when a group demands equal rights do we make progress, because there is never any good arguments why one group shouldn't have the same rights as others. Equality remains self evident.

Identity politics IS a demand for equality, based on the recognition that certain groups experience inequality in ways specific to them. For example, Black women are 3-4 times as likely to die from pregnancy related complications and twice as likely to lose an infant to premature death. A plea for that to be considered and rectified is not a desire for "special treatment," and in fact if it were to be changed that wo…

> Black women are 3-4 times as likely to die from pregnancy related complications and twice as likely to lose an infant to premature death.

Yes, but only as a statistical category. Skin color is not causal.

Rich black women are not 3-4 times as likely to die from pregnancy complications nor are they twice as likely to lose an infant to premature death.

Similarly black immigrants have statistically different outcomes from black people who grew up in America on most measures.

It’s not that the problems aren’t real. It’s not that they aren’t a consequence of racism.

It’s that more racism is not a solution.

Re: The Threat from the Illiberal Left

#13

The fundamental problem of Liberalism is that it thinks the world is far more stateless than it actually is. I guess the idea was knocking down feudalism would make everything liquid and fast converging? Orthodox economics = equilibrium theory only bakes in the problem by definition. We now know empiricly that this stuff is not true. This pulls out the rug from under so many of Liberalism's precepts, and yet Liberali…

> The fundamental problem of Liberalism is that it thinks the world is far more stateless than it actually is.

This is vague and untestable. You could literally make this claim against any ideology and we wouldn’t be able to ascertain a truth value.

Re: The Threat from the Illiberal Left

#15
post #13

The fundamental problem of Liberalism is that it thinks the world is far more stateless than it actually is. I guess the idea was knocking down feudalism would make everything liquid and fast converging? Orthodox economics = equilibrium theory only bakes in the problem by definition. We now know empiricly that this stuff is not true. This pulls out the rug from under so many of Liberalism's precepts, and yet Liberali…

> The fundamental problem of Liberalism is that it thinks the world is far more stateless than it actually is. This is vague and untestable. You could literally make this claim against any ideology and we wouldn’t be able to ascertain a truth value.

What part? That liberalism assumes more statelessness than reality? Or that this is it's fundamental issue?

For the former, we have tons of evidence:

https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2018/12/11/...

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w28979/w289...

I recall something also about the persistence of Roman settlement patterns in France vs Britain proving to be a disadvantage in the early modern era when ocean-based commerce became so important.

Whether it's "equal opportunity vs equal outcome", liberalism assumes that the system will converge and the two will be brought into alignment mertiocratically. When there's an emphasis on rules-based systems, it assumes there is some sort of quorum of those playing by the rules and others will have to join the fold. When there's a belief that competition could sustain itself, we're simply requirements the needs of equilibrium theory back into our assumptions.

Rather than being elastic and in balance, the world is much more plastic and constantly rebalancing, with the former masking the latter. There is still much of liberalism to be admired, but it should be saved for the "victory lap". Perhaps liberalism works for worlds that are fixed, it does not work for worlds that need fixing.

Re: The Threat from the Illiberal Left

#16
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fundamental problem of Liberalism is that it thinks the world is far more stateless than it actually is. This is vague and untestable. You could literally make this claim against any ideology and we wouldn’t be able to ascertain a truth value.

What part? That liberalism assumes more statelessness than reality? Or that this is it's fundamental issue? For the former, we have tons of evidence: https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2018/12/11/... https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w28979/w289... I recall something also about the persistence of Roman settlement patterns in France vs Britain proving to be a disadvantage in the early mode…

> liberalism assumes that the system will converge and the two will be brought into alignment mertiocratically.

Liberalism makes no such assumption. It simply makes the assumption that less liberal systems will be even worse at producing human flourishing.

> When there's an emphasis on rules-based systems, it assumes there is some sort of quorum of those playing by the rules and others will have to join the fold.

It does assume that it is in people’s general interests to have some kind of trustworthy system of agreements.

As for ‘other people having to join the fold’. Liberalism makes no such assumption. If you’re referring to the US expecting China to liberalize, that has nothing to do with an assumption of liberalism. It was just a misunderstanding of the nature of Maoism and the CCP.

> Perhaps liberalism works for worlds that are fixed, it does not work for worlds that need fixing.

This is a complete non-sequitur from your prior statements.

The notion of “worlds that need fixing” is Utopianism by another name, and is the perennial justification for the authoritarianism.

Re: The Threat from the Illiberal Left

#17
>> The best way to navigate disruptive change in a divided world is through a universal commitment to individual dignity, open markets and limited government.

Woa, hold horses! "Open markets and limited government"? That's libertarianism not liberalism.

As sooome kind of liberal, I parse "open markets" as "no rights for workers, no-holds-barred environmental destruction by industry"; and whenever I read "limited government" I hear "less power to voters". That is not liberalism.

I don't know what liberalism is, though I know it when I see it, but I'm sure that the highest ideals associated with liberalism should be humanitarian ideals, not economic ideals. Human rights legislation, free education and healthcare, policies driven by quality of life indicators, that sounds like liberalism. Free market economics and industry deregulation? Not so much.

Re: The Threat from the Illiberal Left

#18

The problem with identity politics is that no progress is made. You are never going to convince another identity that yours should get special treatment. Only when a group demands equal rights do we make progress, because there is never any good arguments why one group shouldn't have the same rights as others. Equality remains self evident.

>The problem with identity politics is that no progress is made. You are never going to convince another identity that yours should get special treatment. Only when a group demands equal rights do we make progress, because there is never any good arguments why one group shouldn't have the same rights as others. Equality remains self evident.

Correct. It's the demand for special treatment and/or allowance for special behavior not tolerated in/allowed for others (and, conversely, not allowing others to receive the same special treatment) that causes resentment.

"Part of left's problem is it expects/demands blacks/hispanics to vote on ethnic basis but is appalled when whites do" (https://twitter.com/JYDenham/status/796345533124186113>)

Re: The Threat from the Illiberal Left

#19
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part? That liberalism assumes more statelessness than reality? Or that this is it's fundamental issue? For the former, we have tons of evidence: https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2018/12/11/... https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w28979/w289... I recall something also about the persistence of Roman settlement patterns in France vs Britain proving to be a disadvantage in the early mode…

> liberalism assumes that the system will converge and the two will be brought into alignment mertiocratically. Liberalism makes no such assumption. It simply makes the assumption that less liberal systems will be even worse at producing human flourishing. > When there's an emphasis on rules-based systems, it assumes there is some sort of quorum of those playing by the rules and others will have to join the fold. It…

> Liberalism makes no such assumption. It simply makes the assumption that less liberal systems will be even worse at producing human flourishing.

I think that is a modern conservative widening of the goalposts. They were more confident in the past. Such week claims are not going to save liberalism so I suggest a different tack.

> Liberalism makes no such assumption. If you’re referring to the US expecting China to liberalize, that has nothing to do with an assumption of liberalism. It was just a misunderstanding of the nature of Maoism and the CCP.

I am not referring to that in particular. I am referring to the narrative behind 2nd-wave colonialism in general, and since then IMF / World Bank insisting on free trade, etc. In a domesticate setting, education is viewed similarly to clean up the bitter deluded masses, "science will defeat religion" type views. Liberalism has always been about taming the wild passions of a vast illiberal other.

And to be clear, I would be perfectly happy if education brought patience, science defeated religion, etc. etc., but again empirical reality doesn't make one so hopeful.

> The notion of “worlds that need fixing” is Utopianism by another name, and is the perennial justification for the authoritarianism.

Liberalism has always had a slight utopianist inclination, be it whig history, "the arc of history bends towards Justice", etc. Reform, not revolution, but certainly not accepting the world as it is either.

Again, I think you are imparting a modern conservative spin on the ideology. Again, it might better align liberalism with the reality of what it actually accomplishes, but that is is too tepid and will not save it.

Re: The Threat from the Illiberal Left

#20
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> liberalism assumes that the system will converge and the two will be brought into alignment mertiocratically. Liberalism makes no such assumption. It simply makes the assumption that less liberal systems will be even worse at producing human flourishing. > When there's an emphasis on rules-based systems, it assumes there is some sort of quorum of those playing by the rules and others will have to join the fold. It…

> Liberalism makes no such assumption. It simply makes the assumption that less liberal systems will be even worse at producing human flourishing. I think that is a modern conservative widening of the goalposts. They were more confident in the past. Such week claims are not going to save liberalism so I suggest a different tack. > Liberalism makes no such assumption. If you’re referring to the US expecting China to l…

> Liberalism has always had a slight utopianist inclination, be it whig history, "the arc of history bends towards Justice", etc. Reform, not revolution, but certainly not accepting the world as it is either.

Thinking that people can improve things or solve problems over time is not what Utopianism means.

> Again, I think you are imparting a modern conservative spin on the ideology.

No, you are reading that in.

> Again, it might better align liberalism with the reality of what it actually accomplishes, but that is is *too tepid( and will not save it.

This is a restatement of the justification for authoritarianism.

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