EFF Joins Global Coalition Asking Apple CEO Tim Cook to Stop Phone-Scanning • Hacker News Board

Re: EFF Joins Global Coalition Asking Apple CEO Tim Cook to Stop Phone-Scanning

#11

Post by azinman2 » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

> As we’ve explained in Deeplinks blog posts, Apple’s planned phone-scanning system opens the door to broader abuses. It decreases privacy for all iCloud photo users, and the parental notification system is a shift away from strong end-to-end encryption. It will tempt liberal democratic regimes to increase surveillance, and likely bring even great pressures from regimes that already have online censorship ensconced in law.

What’s clear is the potential for future abuse mandated by various gov (though that could easily be the same even without all these CSAM measures.. not a new threat). However, the other things are erroneously lumped in with it. It only weakens privacy for iCloud photos if you have CP or photos in a CP database, and it doesn’t prevent E2E with texting… it just gives an additional parental control in addition to the many numerous parental controls (with them kids have no privacy already), and is totally unrelated to the CSAM effort.

I admire the EFF in many ways, but I wish they’d be more exact here given their access to expert knowledge.

Re: EFF Joins Global Coalition Asking Apple CEO Tim Cook to Stop Phone-Scanning

#12

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #4

slownews45 wrote: post #2

I feel list this story keeps on showing up on HN. Does anyone have a link to previous discussion on this topic? Might help avoid endless re-hashes of the same arguments and misinformation.

I've come to abhor the term `misinformation`, I know your intent but Twitter/FB has been using it in nafarious ways. Anytime I hear it, it triggers censorship related thoughts for me.

[deleted]

Re: EFF Joins Global Coalition Asking Apple CEO Tim Cook to Stop Phone-Scanning

#13

Post by zepto » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

slownews45 wrote: post #10

systemvoltage wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've come to abhor the term `misinformation`, I know your intent but Twitter/FB has been using it in nafarious ways. Anytime I hear it, it triggers censorship related thoughts for me.

I agree! It's been misused to mean things someone doesn't agree with too often :) In this case we have been gettings tons of claims that what apple doing will see them charged with child porn felonies etc with almost no foundation. We've also had lots of claims based on a failure to actually read about what apple is doing (ie, will scan all content not just that scheduled for upload to icloud etc).

Sure, but as someone who agrees with you, I’m not sure we can call that ‘misinformation’. It’s just poor understanding and bad arguments.

I have seen a little misinformation relating to this subject - direct lies, fake news, fake links etc, but a negligible amount.

Re: EFF Joins Global Coalition Asking Apple CEO Tim Cook to Stop Phone-Scanning

#14

Post by carlosdp » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #11

> As we’ve explained in Deeplinks blog posts, Apple’s planned phone-scanning system opens the door to broader abuses. It decreases privacy for all iCloud photo users, and the parental notification system is a shift away from strong end-to-end encryption. It will tempt liberal democratic regimes to increase surveillance, and likely bring even great pressures from regimes that already have online censorship ensconced i…

> (though that could easily be the same even without all these CSAM measures.. not a new threat)

Apple has historically avoided being pressured by governments to allow this kind of surveillance by arguing they can't be forced to create functionality that doesn't exist, or hand over information they don't have. It's the argument they made in the San Bernadino case.

If they release this, it'll be much harder to avoid giving governments that existing ability for other, non-CSAM uses.

Re: EFF Joins Global Coalition Asking Apple CEO Tim Cook to Stop Phone-Scanning

#15

Post by bequanna » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

Does Tim Cook have a choice here?

I would be surprised to hear that the genesis of this idea was inside of Apple vs. one or more govts pressuring Apple to add this functionality for them.

It is also likely they even suggested that Apple should market this as anti-pedo tech to receive the least pushback from users.

Re: EFF Joins Global Coalition Asking Apple CEO Tim Cook to Stop Phone-Scanning

#16

Post by slownews45 » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #13

slownews45 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree! It's been misused to mean things someone doesn't agree with too often :) In this case we have been gettings tons of claims that what apple doing will see them charged with child porn felonies etc with almost no foundation. We've also had lots of claims based on a failure to actually read about what apple is doing (ie, will scan all content not just that scheduled for upload to icloud etc).

Sure, but as someone who agrees with you, I’m not sure we can call that ‘misinformation’. It’s just poor understanding and bad arguments. I have seen a little misinformation relating to this subject - direct lies, fake news, fake links etc, but a negligible amount.

All good points. Yeah, we should stop using the term I think given it's lost a lot of its meaning. But a fair bit of the discussion of this topic has been badly misinformed.

Re: EFF Joins Global Coalition Asking Apple CEO Tim Cook to Stop Phone-Scanning

#17

Post by mrtksn » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

The logical argument against this tech is solid but I despise it because it materializes the theological idea of “always being watched”.

There’s always an option to be part of the government and be on the side that takes advantage of this tech to take out rivals, make your job easier etc. but implementation of always watching devices is a hill to die on.

Re: EFF Joins Global Coalition Asking Apple CEO Tim Cook to Stop Phone-Scanning

#18

Post by tpush » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 7:46 PM UTC

> [...] and the parental notification system is a shift away from strong end-to-end encryption.

That particular statement doesn't make much sense to me. The parental notification system is just a frontend action (one of many, like link previews and such). What does that have to do with iMessage's encryption?

I can see an argument about a shift away from privacy (though it only pertains to minors under 13 receiving sexually explicit images). But I think it's misleading to say that it relates to iMessage's encryption in any way.

Re: EFF Joins Global Coalition Asking Apple CEO Tim Cook to Stop Phone-Scanning

#19

Post by zepto » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 7:46 PM UTC

slownews45 wrote: post #16

zepto wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but as someone who agrees with you, I’m not sure we can call that ‘misinformation’. It’s just poor understanding and bad arguments. I have seen a little misinformation relating to this subject - direct lies, fake news, fake links etc, but a negligible amount.

All good points. Yeah, we should stop using the term I think given it's lost a lot of its meaning. But a fair bit of the discussion of this topic has been badly misinformed.

I agree, but that is a feature of this particular problem.

For example, I see a lot of people who are simply wrong about how the hash matching works. One way to be wrong is to think it’s a cryptographic hash. Another way to be wrong is to think it’s just a perceptual hash match.

The problem is that these are both not crazy. The actual solution is far more complex and non-obvious than most people would suspect.

I think this is a genuine problem with the system. It is hard for almost anyone to imagine how it could be trustworthy.

Re: EFF Joins Global Coalition Asking Apple CEO Tim Cook to Stop Phone-Scanning

#20

Post by soziawa » Sat, Aug 21, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

This is based on pure speculation, but could it be that Apple believes the covid tracking functionality has shifted power from governments to Apple?

Many governments (e.g. Germany) wanted location instead of token based tracking with central storage of location pretty much up until the point where Apple and Google said that it won't happen .

This is based on my perception of Germany tech media coverage of the issue.