Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Intel Brings Chiplets to Data Center CPUs

eetimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 51 posts

Re: Intel Brings Chiplets to Data Center CPUs

#11

Post by wmf »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #9
OrvalWintermute wrote: post #2

I thought AMD had already brought chiplets to data center CPUs a long time ago [1], [2] and that is why they are leading currently, now that they have multiple generations of chiplet data center CPUs out? [3] [1] https://www.wired.com/story/keep-pace-moores-law-chipmakers-... [2] https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-epyc-processor-models-... [3] https://www.wired.com/story/keep-pace-moores-law-chipmakers-...

You are right AMD has done that. I don't know if it is the reason they are leading -- they have better process technology and in many ways better core design as well. But this story is about Intel. Though it depends on how you define "chiplet". In this article it looks like 4 identical chips wired on a package each with their own IO and memory controllers. That's very different from from AMD's core chips wired to an…

Sapphire Rapids is more similar to AMD's "Naples" Epyc from 2017 which also used four identical dies. Intel's mesh and EMIB should give Sapphire Rapids dramatically more internal bandwidth than AMD designs. It counts as chiplets IMO because the dies aren't intended to be used standalone.

Re: Intel Brings Chiplets to Data Center CPUs

#12

Post by throwawaylinux »

DSingularity wrote: post #4

Intel is in the cusp of getting taking out. Architectures and process technologies are both multiple generations behind. AMD has 10x its server share. If the trend sustains for one more generation the majority of the market will go to AMD.

Not that Intel is in a good spot, but Intel for about the past 4 years has been in the position that AMD (and TSMC) had been in for much of the past 30 years (with some brief switches).

Actually it's not even that in the case of Intel vs AMD because Intel continues to have large revenues and profits (gross margins slipped from usual low-60s to low-50s in the past few years). Whereas AMD was really struggling as a company for long periods.

Could Intel be in terminal decline as a CPU design and/or silicon manufacturing leader? It's possible. Is it a done deal or are they "finished" any time soon? No way. It will be many years while this plays out.

Re: Intel Brings Chiplets to Data Center CPUs

#13

Post by uluyol »

mhh__ wrote: post #7
DSingularity wrote: post #4

Intel is in the cusp of getting taking out. Architectures and process technologies are both multiple generations behind. AMD has 10x its server share. If the trend sustains for one more generation the majority of the market will go to AMD.

I'll have a glass of whatever you're having. Intel's first proper competitor to Zen is coming out soon, and from what I've seen so far it looks like a monster. Couple this with them launching GPU's into the most demand-heavy market we might ever see, they don't have to do much to have a good few years. Also, every measure I've ever seen has AMD still at least a doubling away from parity with Intel, so I find your fig…

AMD and Intel are fighting different battles right now.

AMD is competing with Intel today. They're offerings are better so they're winning market share and growing.

On the other hand, Intel really needs to be compared to the Intel of a few years back. They had ~100% of the server, laptop, and workstation markets. Whatever they released, people would buy it, and they could charge whatever they wanted. That level of dominance isn't going to come back. There is too much competition from AMD and ARM.

I'm not saying that Intel won't do well. But while they have to deliver competitive CPUs, they also have to succeed with this GPU push (which btw is not their first attempt) and probably also succeed with fabbing other people's chips (which has also flopped in the past). So they need to not flop this time, and they have to continue to execute well since these areas all have competition.

As a consumer, this is all excellent. It's seriously amazing what healthy competition brings.

Re: Intel Brings Chiplets to Data Center CPUs

#14

Post by h2odragon »

mappu wrote: post #8
shadilay wrote: post #3

I wonder if they'll call it "glued-together". https://www.pcgamer.com/intel-slide-criticizes-amd-for-using... The 4 die SoC does look an awful lot like 1st gen EPYC.

It's especially ironic because Intel had also previously "glued together" chiplets for the C2Qs and their equivalent Xeons (e.g. X3200 series). > The 2 × 2 "quad-core" (dual-die dual-core[17]) comprised two separate dual-core die next to each other in one CPU package.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_Pro

Re: Intel Brings Chiplets to Data Center CPUs

#15

Post by throwawaylinux »

wmf wrote: post #11
throwawaylinux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right AMD has done that. I don't know if it is the reason they are leading -- they have better process technology and in many ways better core design as well. But this story is about Intel. Though it depends on how you define "chiplet". In this article it looks like 4 identical chips wired on a package each with their own IO and memory controllers. That's very different from from AMD's core chips wired to an…

Sapphire Rapids is more similar to AMD's "Naples" Epyc from 2017 which also used four identical dies. Intel's mesh and EMIB should give Sapphire Rapids dramatically more internal bandwidth than AMD designs. It counts as chiplets IMO because the dies aren't intended to be used standalone.

More similar to that than? The current AMD chip+io die approach? Sure.

As I said, "chiplet" just depends on a definition, there is really no good single one. Almost certainly the dies could be used standalone, and it wouldn't be surprising if some were for low end SKUs (modulo the statement in the article that they won't for this generation) -- there are some mesh IOs on some length about 1/2 the die on two edges, that's it. Not much area.

Re: Intel Brings Chiplets to Data Center CPUs

#16

Post by totalZero »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #12
DSingularity wrote: post #4

Intel is in the cusp of getting taking out. Architectures and process technologies are both multiple generations behind. AMD has 10x its server share. If the trend sustains for one more generation the majority of the market will go to AMD.

Not that Intel is in a good spot, but Intel for about the past 4 years has been in the position that AMD (and TSMC) had been in for much of the past 30 years (with some brief switches). Actually it's not even that in the case of Intel vs AMD because Intel continues to have large revenues and profits (gross margins slipped from usual low-60s to low-50s in the past few years). Whereas AMD was really struggling as a com…

Intel is nowhere close to the doldrums of yesteryear's AMD. It continues to command the lion's share of the x86 market, and hasn't needed to sell off assets in order to remain afloat. In fact, Intel's business has never been better. The AMD-favoring narrative that the firms have flip-flopped is not backed up by market share research, nor corroborated by quarterly filings.

Re: Intel Brings Chiplets to Data Center CPUs

#17

Post by lostmsu »

h2odragon wrote: post #14
mappu wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's especially ironic because Intel had also previously "glued together" chiplets for the C2Qs and their equivalent Xeons (e.g. X3200 series). > The 2 × 2 "quad-core" (dual-die dual-core[17]) comprised two separate dual-core die next to each other in one CPU package.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_Pro

> Later, it was reduced to a more narrow role as a server and high-end desktop processor and was used in supercomputers like ASCI Red, the first computer to reach the trillion floating point operations per second (teraFLOPS) performance mark.

Amazing. RTX 3090 has peak fp32 performance of 35 TFLOPS.

Re: Intel Brings Chiplets to Data Center CPUs

#18

Post by tedunangst »

mappu wrote: post #8
shadilay wrote: post #3

I wonder if they'll call it "glued-together". https://www.pcgamer.com/intel-slide-criticizes-amd-for-using... The 4 die SoC does look an awful lot like 1st gen EPYC.

It's especially ironic because Intel had also previously "glued together" chiplets for the C2Qs and their equivalent Xeons (e.g. X3200 series). > The 2 × 2 "quad-core" (dual-die dual-core[17]) comprised two separate dual-core die next to each other in one CPU package.

And at the time of the Phenom X4 launch, AMD was mocking Intel for not putting all cores on one die. Seems the technically superior solution wobbles depending on who's doing it.

Re: Intel Brings Chiplets to Data Center CPUs

#19

Post by throwawaylinux »

totalZero wrote: post #16
throwawaylinux wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that Intel is in a good spot, but Intel for about the past 4 years has been in the position that AMD (and TSMC) had been in for much of the past 30 years (with some brief switches). Actually it's not even that in the case of Intel vs AMD because Intel continues to have large revenues and profits (gross margins slipped from usual low-60s to low-50s in the past few years). Whereas AMD was really struggling as a com…

Intel is nowhere close to the doldrums of yesteryear's AMD. It continues to command the lion's share of the x86 market, and hasn't needed to sell off assets in order to remain afloat. In fact, Intel's business has never been better. The AMD-favoring narrative that the firms have flip-flopped is not backed up by market share research, nor corroborated by quarterly filings.

That's what I was getting at. On technical execution they actually are doing pretty bad particularly in manufacturing but also in CPU design. But even technically it has been a few years in comparison to current leaders that previously lagged by similar amounts for many years. Of course financially they are doing far better.

It's just amazing to me that people who really follow the AMD / Intel battle quite closely can actually believe that Intel is finished because AMD emerged from their decade-long post-Opteron slump a few years ago with Zen.

Re: Intel Brings Chiplets to Data Center CPUs

#20

Post by DSingularity »

x3sphere wrote: post #6
DSingularity wrote: post #4

Intel is in the cusp of getting taking out. Architectures and process technologies are both multiple generations behind. AMD has 10x its server share. If the trend sustains for one more generation the majority of the market will go to AMD.

Going by this... https://www.cpubenchmark.net/market_share.html Intel still has 90%+ of the server market. It only just started moving over to AMD. They did gain a lot of ground over Intel in the desktop market though.

Yeah, 5 years ago it was a 99% market share.
Post reply on HN