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Designing better batteries for electric vehicles

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Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles

#11

Post by paul_f »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #9
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some practical concerns with current generation batteries though; use of rare earth materials, lithium, and fire hazards and risks in accidents. I mean they're not the end of the world and they are acceptable compared to e.g. the environmental damage done by the production and consumptions of petrol and diesel, but I feel like they still iterate on them a lot. I mean the ideal here is not to just create an al…

ICE cars catch fire all the time. But when an EV catches news, it's major news. It happens relatively rarely. Nowhere near enough for this to be a concern. Interestingly, some rare earths used for EVs are also used for ICE cars and fuel production. For example cobalt is used for getting rid of sulfur in pretty large quantities as part of the oil refining process. The difference is that with EVs, recycling is both fea…

It is not the frequency of EV fires that is a concern, but the difficulty and danger associated with putting them out. From this article, an ICE fire requires 300 gallons of water to extinguish - and for electric vehicle fire, 28,000 gallons and 7 hours. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/federal-regulators-wa...

Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles

#13

Post by inglor_cz »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #9
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some practical concerns with current generation batteries though; use of rare earth materials, lithium, and fire hazards and risks in accidents. I mean they're not the end of the world and they are acceptable compared to e.g. the environmental damage done by the production and consumptions of petrol and diesel, but I feel like they still iterate on them a lot. I mean the ideal here is not to just create an al…

ICE cars catch fire all the time. But when an EV catches news, it's major news. It happens relatively rarely. Nowhere near enough for this to be a concern. Interestingly, some rare earths used for EVs are also used for ICE cars and fuel production. For example cobalt is used for getting rid of sulfur in pretty large quantities as part of the oil refining process. The difference is that with EVs, recycling is both fea…

"It happens relatively rarely. Nowhere near enough for this to be a concern."

You are too dismissive. Not every fire is created equal and putting out battery fires is much harder than putting out gas/diesel fires.

Also, EVs sometimes go up in flames when at rest, which, short of deliberate arson, is not a failure mode in ICE cars. ICE cars will generally catch fire underway, far enough from other cars, thus limiting the damage to one car. (A deadly exception might happen in a tunnel.)

You might have seen this video from China.

https://www.scmp.com/video/china/3136069/electric-bus-bursts...

If something like that happened in a car park full of EVs, for example, underneath a shopping mall, the consequences would be pretty bad.

Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles

#14

Post by h4vot »

adrianN wrote: post #8
_ZeD_ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Iterating on battery design is important but it's important to realize that existing batteries are already pretty good. are you serius? do you really think it's "pretty good" the range electric vehicles have, compared to ICE ones, looking also at the added weight and the time needed to recharge / refuel? Electric vehicles are not a fad, but the battery energy density it's still... in the "tolerable, at most" phase…

EVs can cover almost all usecases for a large number of people. I think that counts as "pretty good", the main issue seems to be cost and lack of charging infrastructure for people without a garage.

Husband got a Jag i-Pace a few months ago. 400 km range. Haven't even bothered to get the fast charging equipment installed yet at home just give it 240 volts at night.

Its never been under 50%. I think for the vast majority of city and suburban folk, 99/100 trips are not an issue.

Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles

#15

Post by Thlom »

inglor_cz wrote: post #13
jillesvangurp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE cars catch fire all the time. But when an EV catches news, it's major news. It happens relatively rarely. Nowhere near enough for this to be a concern. Interestingly, some rare earths used for EVs are also used for ICE cars and fuel production. For example cobalt is used for getting rid of sulfur in pretty large quantities as part of the oil refining process. The difference is that with EVs, recycling is both fea…

"It happens relatively rarely. Nowhere near enough for this to be a concern." You are too dismissive. Not every fire is created equal and putting out battery fires is much harder than putting out gas/diesel fires. Also, EVs sometimes go up in flames when at rest , which, short of deliberate arson, is not a failure mode in ICE cars. ICE cars will generally catch fire underway, far enough from other cars, thus limiting…

An airport parking facility burned to the ground in Norway a couple of years ago because an ICE car went up in flames while parked.

Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles

#16

Post by pjc50 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #13
jillesvangurp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE cars catch fire all the time. But when an EV catches news, it's major news. It happens relatively rarely. Nowhere near enough for this to be a concern. Interestingly, some rare earths used for EVs are also used for ICE cars and fuel production. For example cobalt is used for getting rid of sulfur in pretty large quantities as part of the oil refining process. The difference is that with EVs, recycling is both fea…

"It happens relatively rarely. Nowhere near enough for this to be a concern." You are too dismissive. Not every fire is created equal and putting out battery fires is much harder than putting out gas/diesel fires. Also, EVs sometimes go up in flames when at rest , which, short of deliberate arson, is not a failure mode in ICE cars. ICE cars will generally catch fire underway, far enough from other cars, thus limiting…

Catching fire at rest is a risk for ICE cars: https://www.autosafety.org/bmw-recalls-1-million-vehicles-fi...

Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles

#17

Post by lithium_throw »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #9
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some practical concerns with current generation batteries though; use of rare earth materials, lithium, and fire hazards and risks in accidents. I mean they're not the end of the world and they are acceptable compared to e.g. the environmental damage done by the production and consumptions of petrol and diesel, but I feel like they still iterate on them a lot. I mean the ideal here is not to just create an al…

ICE cars catch fire all the time. But when an EV catches news, it's major news. It happens relatively rarely. Nowhere near enough for this to be a concern. Interestingly, some rare earths used for EVs are also used for ICE cars and fuel production. For example cobalt is used for getting rid of sulfur in pretty large quantities as part of the oil refining process. The difference is that with EVs, recycling is both fea…

>For example cobalt is used for getting rid of sulfur in pretty large quantities as part of the oil refining process.

I don't know why this piece of misleading information is recently circulating so much.

By far the most common usage (63%, in 2020, and having grown from 20% in 2006)[1] of cobalt is for lithium battery electrodes (and that is despite the fact that EVs make up a miniscule percentage of cars on the road).

Cobalt is used as a catalyst in the petroleum industry, however its depletion rate is of the order of kg per millions of litres of fuel.

>Tesla recycles all their discarded cells. Why wouldn't they?

I'd like a source for that. The best I can find is that "Tesla say that 100% of their cells can be recycled".

That is true (as it is of any lithium-ion cell), but not in a way that makes any economic or practical sense.

[1] https://www.globalenergymetals.com/cobalt/cobalt-demand/

Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles

#18

Post by pigeonhole123 »

Thlom wrote: post #15
inglor_cz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It happens relatively rarely. Nowhere near enough for this to be a concern." You are too dismissive. Not every fire is created equal and putting out battery fires is much harder than putting out gas/diesel fires. Also, EVs sometimes go up in flames when at rest , which, short of deliberate arson, is not a failure mode in ICE cars. ICE cars will generally catch fire underway, far enough from other cars, thus limiting…

An airport parking facility burned to the ground in Norway a couple of years ago because an ICE car went up in flames while parked.

And ignited the impossible to extinguish electric car batteries in its vicinity

Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles

#19

Post by gameswithgo »

_ZeD_ wrote: post #7
jillesvangurp wrote: post #2

Iterating on battery design is important but it's important to realize that existing batteries are already pretty good. More than good enough to be cost competitive with ICE vehicles over the life time of the vehicle in most classes of road transport (e-bikes to heavy trucks) and trending towards being cost competitive on purchase price as well in the next years and production price soon after (purchase price typical…

> Iterating on battery design is important but it's important to realize that existing batteries are already pretty good. are you serius? do you really think it's "pretty good" the range electric vehicles have, compared to ICE ones, looking also at the added weight and the time needed to recharge / refuel? Electric vehicles are not a fad, but the battery energy density it's still... in the "tolerable, at most" phase…

Very close to good enough, if the Tesla tabless stuff works out, I think we will be at a point where it is fine for close to everyone when it comes to range/charge time.

But teslas are premium, will be some time for things like a Nisan leaf to get the ~400 mile range + fast charge times.

Re: Designing better batteries for electric vehicles

#20

Post by magicalhippo »

Thlom wrote: post #15
inglor_cz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It happens relatively rarely. Nowhere near enough for this to be a concern." You are too dismissive. Not every fire is created equal and putting out battery fires is much harder than putting out gas/diesel fires. Also, EVs sometimes go up in flames when at rest , which, short of deliberate arson, is not a failure mode in ICE cars. ICE cars will generally catch fire underway, far enough from other cars, thus limiting…

An airport parking facility burned to the ground in Norway a couple of years ago because an ICE car went up in flames while parked.

According to the evaluation report[1], the fire started after the car was started, while stationary. So I think it's unfair to call it "while parked".

However the report also mentions in section 4.1 a study which concluded there's no noticeable difference in the chance of catching fire and the severity of the fire between ICE vehicles and electric vehicles.

And in 4.2 they say that in this fire there was not any noticeable difference between the two types of cars. No any evidence was found to suggest that any of the EVs experienced thermal runaway.

[1]: https://dibk.no/globalassets/02.-om-oss/rapporter-og-publika...

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