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US subsidizes oil and gas so investors never lose

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Re: US subsidizes oil and gas so investors never lose

#11
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there is no good reason for the U.S. to maintain such a military so giant that it requires massive, counterproductive subsidies to maintain just in-case we need to engage in a massive war. Investing in the military is nothing like buying more computing capacity on AWS. It's not as flexible as you imagine it to be. By the time war begins, it can be too late. Afghanistan may have been a mistake but other wars were no…

> By the time war begins, it can be too late. What war? The U.S. is invulnerable to invasion. The only conflicts that the U.S. would possibly need such a massive global military for would be foreign wars to maintain its world dominance (e.g. containing China, proxy wars, etc.), which I contend are pointless and destructive. I disagree with your implicit premise that the U.S. has to be the global hegemon - it does not…

>What war? The U.S. is invulnerable to invasion.

The Titanic is unsinkable!

>The only conflicts that the U.S. would possibly need such a massive global military for would be foreign wars to maintain its world dominance (e.g. containing China, proxy wars, etc.), which I contend are pointless and destructive.

Pointless and destructive won't stop them.

>I disagree with your implicit premise that the U.S. has to be the global hegemon

It doesn't have to be but someone will take it's place and they'll do so with all the same fossil fuel powered war machine because that's the best way to maintain power.

>Who is “top dog” and how their military is going to fuel their tanks doesn’t matter when the entire world is facing environmental catastrophe.

You're letting perfect be the enemy of good. There is nothing that the US (or anyone) can do to stop the manufacture and usage of the most advanced weapons of war available which have a massive carbon footprint.

The sooner you come to the conclusion that _somebody_ is going to do it the sooner you can ask the real question of who would you rather it be.

Re: US subsidizes oil and gas so investors never lose

#12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By the time war begins, it can be too late. What war? The U.S. is invulnerable to invasion. The only conflicts that the U.S. would possibly need such a massive global military for would be foreign wars to maintain its world dominance (e.g. containing China, proxy wars, etc.), which I contend are pointless and destructive. I disagree with your implicit premise that the U.S. has to be the global hegemon - it does not…

>What war? The U.S. is invulnerable to invasion. The Titanic is unsinkable! >The only conflicts that the U.S. would possibly need such a massive global military for would be foreign wars to maintain its world dominance (e.g. containing China, proxy wars, etc.), which I contend are pointless and destructive. Pointless and destructive won't stop them. >I disagree with your implicit premise that the U.S. has to be the g…

> The Titanic is unsinkable!

This doesn’t engage with my point. How many nations with nuclear arsenals and a large ocean on either side have been invaded? It isn’t a likely occurrence, and definitely not one worth subsidizing the war industries for decades in preparation for. It makes no strategic sense for another nation to attempt. Why pretend this is the reason we are doing all of this?

> Pointless and destructive won't stop them.

We agree here. My point is that what they are doing is bad, not that they won’t do it anyway. Of course the U.S. military will continue to try and keep the U.S. hegemony alive and continue expending precious resources to do so.

> There is nothing that the US (or anyone) can do to stop the manufacture and usage of the most advanced weapons of war available which have a massive carbon footprint.

I disagree. The U.S. is one of the largest manufacturers and exporters of military equipment, including jets and tanks. If we stopped making and selling them, we could make an impact on emissions. Sure, other people would likely increase their production, but that doesn’t mean the U.S. has to contribute or provide its technical expertise/resources.

> The sooner you come to the conclusion that _somebody_ is going to do it the sooner you can ask the real question of who would you rather it be.

I think this is a weak argument. This is a lot like the Onceler’s line from the Lorax: “If I didn’t do it then someone else would!”, which may be true, but does not mean you have to continue the current path. The U.S. military could commit to ending its foreign wars and reducing its emissions massively if it wanted to, but it does not.

Re: US subsidizes oil and gas so investors never lose

#13
post #2

This article and those like it ignore the actual reason for these subsidies, war time. Until our tanks and jets don't run on oil, we'll subsidize oil. We're not going to make the economy green by increasing the price of oil. It has to be done by making green energy cheaper or capable of replacing oil in military contexts.

Could you cite a source please?

I'm not sure that I buy that. Cost is no object, the govt can afford to buy fuel if it needs it.

Re: US subsidizes oil and gas so investors never lose

#14
No mention of the externalities that the oil industry benefits from - well reclaimation, carbon emissions... It is impossible to have a proper discussion about the oil industry if so many fundamental long term costs are ignored in the public discourse.

Re: US subsidizes oil and gas so investors never lose

#15
post #4
post #2

This article and those like it ignore the actual reason for these subsidies, war time. Until our tanks and jets don't run on oil, we'll subsidize oil. We're not going to make the economy green by increasing the price of oil. It has to be done by making green energy cheaper or capable of replacing oil in military contexts.

Or we could recognize that there is no good reason for the U.S. to have a military so giant that it requires massive, counterproductive subsidies to maintain “just in-case” we need to engage in a massive war. The U.S. military maintained and fueled-up all of those tanks and jets for 20 years in Afghanistan and accomplished nothing. Why should the world’s climate continue to suffer for stuff like that? What is more im…

China has entered the chat..

Re: US subsidizes oil and gas so investors never lose

#16
post #2

This article and those like it ignore the actual reason for these subsidies, war time. Until our tanks and jets don't run on oil, we'll subsidize oil. We're not going to make the economy green by increasing the price of oil. It has to be done by making green energy cheaper or capable of replacing oil in military contexts.

Could you cite a source please? I'm not sure that I buy that. Cost is no object, the govt can afford to buy fuel if it needs it.

I'm not sure I can but it seems tautological. If the US is at war with the country that supplies us oil, I doubt any amount of money is going to get them to sell it.

Conversely, any country we import oil from during war time becomes a target to the supply line.

Re: US subsidizes oil and gas so investors never lose

#17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you cite a source please? I'm not sure that I buy that. Cost is no object, the govt can afford to buy fuel if it needs it.

I'm not sure I can but it seems tautological. If the US is at war with the country that supplies us oil, I doubt any amount of money is going to get them to sell it. Conversely, any country we import oil from during war time becomes a target to the supply line.

The US is a net exporter of oil and gets over half of it's imported oil from Canada.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-produc...

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/oil-and-petroleum-produc...

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