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Three Americans create enough carbon emissions to kill one person, study finds

theguardian.com

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Re: Three Americans create enough carbon emissions to kill one person, study finds

#11

Post by abeppu »

goodpoint wrote: post #8
option wrote: post #4

are Americans producing the most emissions per person? I bet no - so why Americans are singled out?

Among countries with big population numbers, US has among the highest rate of energy use and pollution per person, and by far.

I think that's not true. Qatar leads the list (and Kuwait, Oman, UAE are also up there), and countries like Canada, Australia are also ahead of the US (I imagine in part b/c of heating and cooling?).

https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe...

Re: Three Americans create enough carbon emissions to kill one person, study finds

#12

Post by sologoub »

goodpoint wrote: post #8
option wrote: post #4

are Americans producing the most emissions per person? I bet no - so why Americans are singled out?

Among countries with big population numbers, US has among the highest rate of energy use and pollution per person, and by far.

Source? US looks to be #2 on overall CO2 emissions (China is double what US outputs), if you sort by per capita (per person), US is not the top by far (16th): https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe...

Re: Three Americans create enough carbon emissions to kill one person, study finds

#14

Post by raffraffraff »

option wrote: post #4

are Americans producing the most emissions per person? I bet no - so why Americans are singled out?

I think it's because some Nations with higher per-capita emmissions (like Qatar) are teensy and can't do much about their heavy outputs (desalination, aircon take a lot of energy). The US is huge, is visible on the top per-capita list and is also the 2nd largest emitter overall. Given that the US is a first world economy, is extremely consumerist and has a love affair with gas-guzzling cars, it's likely that by simply making better choices, the US could likely cut more % per-capita than Qatar. And given their size, that would have impact on a global scale.

Re: Three Americans create enough carbon emissions to kill one person, study finds

#15

Post by nimmer »

sologoub wrote: post #12
goodpoint wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Among countries with big population numbers, US has among the highest rate of energy use and pollution per person, and by far.

Source? US looks to be #2 on overall CO2 emissions (China is double what US outputs), if you sort by per capita (per person), US is not the top by far (16th): https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe...

No, you have to take in account energy usage and pollution attributed to the consumer of at the end of the production chain.

E.g. if you import a phone from China you have to account for the energy usage and pollution as yours.

Re: Three Americans create enough carbon emissions to kill one person, study finds

#16

Post by abeppu »

abeppu wrote: post #3

I think our society needs to revisit ideas about not just collective responsibility, but collective guilt. Any one of us struggles to see living our normal carbon-intensive lives as an act of violence, but the consequences are nevertheless deadly. We've understood many of the impacts of our behavior for decades, but our carbon intensive activities only intensified. At what point can we talk about collective guilt, an…

Clearly my take is unpopular, but the alternative is that we continue to kill with impunity so long as we do it through sufficiently diffuse means?

Re: Three Americans create enough carbon emissions to kill one person, study finds

#17

Post by goodpoint »

abeppu wrote: post #16
abeppu wrote: post #3

I think our society needs to revisit ideas about not just collective responsibility, but collective guilt. Any one of us struggles to see living our normal carbon-intensive lives as an act of violence, but the consequences are nevertheless deadly. We've understood many of the impacts of our behavior for decades, but our carbon intensive activities only intensified. At what point can we talk about collective guilt, an…

Clearly my take is unpopular, but the alternative is that we continue to kill with impunity so long as we do it through sufficiently diffuse means?

Together with wealth inequality we are seeing environmental inequality.

Perhaps history will remember the "First Environmental War" after WW1 and WW2.

Re: Three Americans create enough carbon emissions to kill one person, study finds

#18

Post by abeppu »

nimmer wrote: post #15
sologoub wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source? US looks to be #2 on overall CO2 emissions (China is double what US outputs), if you sort by per capita (per person), US is not the top by far (16th): https://www.worldometers.info/co2-emissions/co2-emissions-pe...

No, you have to take in account energy usage and pollution attributed to the consumer of at the end of the production chain. E.g. if you import a phone from China you have to account for the energy usage and pollution as yours.

Do you have a reference to a list which does that calculation?

All the other states at the to of that carbon per capita list also seem like they're highly dependent on imports, possibly more than the US, so I'd expect that many of the factors you describe also apply to them. The gulf states also have to get their phones from abroad.

Re: Three Americans create enough carbon emissions to kill one person, study finds

#19

Post by hirundo »

abeppu wrote: post #3

I think our society needs to revisit ideas about not just collective responsibility, but collective guilt. Any one of us struggles to see living our normal carbon-intensive lives as an act of violence, but the consequences are nevertheless deadly. We've understood many of the impacts of our behavior for decades, but our carbon intensive activities only intensified. At what point can we talk about collective guilt, an…

Collective guilt is frequently a chief rationale behind mass killings. That includes six million dead in the Holocaust, three million in Kampuchea, another three million in the Holodomor, estimates of up to sixty million in China's Great Leap Forward. Unfortunately the list goes on and on. I think this makes a good argument that collective guilt is possibly the most evil, unjust concept humanity has ever invented. Playing with fire doesn't describe it, it's more like playing with a supercritical lump of plutonium.

Re: Three Americans create enough carbon emissions to kill one person, study finds

#20

Post by abeppu »

hirundo wrote: post #19
abeppu wrote: post #3

I think our society needs to revisit ideas about not just collective responsibility, but collective guilt. Any one of us struggles to see living our normal carbon-intensive lives as an act of violence, but the consequences are nevertheless deadly. We've understood many of the impacts of our behavior for decades, but our carbon intensive activities only intensified. At what point can we talk about collective guilt, an…

Collective guilt is frequently a chief rationale behind mass killings. That includes six million dead in the Holocaust, three million in Kampuchea, another three million in the Holodomor, estimates of up to sixty million in China's Great Leap Forward. Unfortunately the list goes on and on. I think this makes a good argument that collective guilt is possibly the most evil, unjust concept humanity has ever invented. Pl…

I didn't choose to bring up the holocaust, but I was thinking more about the other side of it. Many did feel that all Germans were guilty, even those who weren't specifically employed in the military. But it was recognized that actually holding many parties responsible was infeasible, so the trials at Nuremberg were only for the very most prominent. For some time the US tried to make German civilians in their zones watch films showing the atrocities, but many people refused to even look at the screen.
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