Live data from Hacker News

The Incoming Currency War

promarket.org

11–20 of 32 posts

Re: The Incoming Currency War

#11
post #7

So... digitisation certainly has a lot of disruption potential. I would frame it differently though... I also don't think it's the only factor. First, digitisation has already happened. Most money has been digital for a long time. The full consequences of digitisation just haven't materialised yet. Centralisation of the banking & financial services world, regulation, cascading structure (clearing houses, etc) and gen…

> I would argue that large parts of the financial system actually failed 13 years ago. Bailouts restored them.

There are substantial movements in the market that only make sense if the motivation is a straightforward government intervention. It is a mockery of everything the financial system strives to be when we get hit by the worst crisis in around 30-50 years and the response of the stock market is leaping like a well trained puppy to breathtaking all time highs.

The US financial system is starting to flirt with central planning. I'm keeping a weather eye out for the day that the majority of US spending is done by the government.

Re: The Incoming Currency War

#12
post #7

So... digitisation certainly has a lot of disruption potential. I would frame it differently though... I also don't think it's the only factor. First, digitisation has already happened. Most money has been digital for a long time. The full consequences of digitisation just haven't materialised yet. Centralisation of the banking & financial services world, regulation, cascading structure (clearing houses, etc) and gen…

> Monetarism seems to have ended

Not sure where this is coming from. We're in the prime of expansive monetary policy. As you say, its old constraints have dissolved. That increases its primacy.

> Most plausible successors treat fiscal and/or tax policies as part of the monetary system

The Eurozone was pioneering in decoupling monetary policy from fiscal authority. The status quo being proven isn't exactly revolutionary.

I understand the need to frame everything in terms of generational upheaval and cycles of history. It's tempting and has been since the dawn of written history. But it's largely escapism. A monetary revolution [1] isn't cyclically required any more than Moore's law guaranteed to continue.

At this time, the most likely future appears to be central banks creating, alongside physical and digital money, cryptocurrency money on an authorized ledger. This will re-tool arcane pieces of financial plumbing, but otherwise leave the system untouched.

[1] Note that each of the recent monetary revolutions, from metal to paper to fiat, from free (i.e. de-centralised) to central banked, from national to supranational, increased the power of the state. If you're rooting for a monetary revolution, it's more likely to concentrate power than not.

Re: The Incoming Currency War

#13
post #11
post #7

So... digitisation certainly has a lot of disruption potential. I would frame it differently though... I also don't think it's the only factor. First, digitisation has already happened. Most money has been digital for a long time. The full consequences of digitisation just haven't materialised yet. Centralisation of the banking & financial services world, regulation, cascading structure (clearing houses, etc) and gen…

> I would argue that large parts of the financial system actually failed 13 years ago. Bailouts restored them. There are substantial movements in the market that only make sense if the motivation is a straightforward government intervention. It is a mockery of everything the financial system strives to be when we get hit by the worst crisis in around 30-50 years and the response of the stock market is leaping like a…

[deleted]

Re: The Incoming Currency War

#14
post #11
post #7

So... digitisation certainly has a lot of disruption potential. I would frame it differently though... I also don't think it's the only factor. First, digitisation has already happened. Most money has been digital for a long time. The full consequences of digitisation just haven't materialised yet. Centralisation of the banking & financial services world, regulation, cascading structure (clearing houses, etc) and gen…

> I would argue that large parts of the financial system actually failed 13 years ago. Bailouts restored them. There are substantial movements in the market that only make sense if the motivation is a straightforward government intervention. It is a mockery of everything the financial system strives to be when we get hit by the worst crisis in around 30-50 years and the response of the stock market is leaping like a…

>> everything the financial system strives to be

This is a somewhat "loaded" statement, with assumptions about what the financial system strives to be. Some of that load is, IMO, monetarism. Some of it is adjacent to monetarism.

Though I suspect we have different views on what we're seeing, I reckon we're seeing a lot of the same things.

It's always easier to explain the past, so this is what it is. That said, I reckon these are a few factors that went into asset value appreciation during the crisis:

1 - As you say, a (correct) market prediction of loose fiscal and monetary policies.

2 - A (probably correct) prediction of long term, near-zero interest rates... regardless of inflation. IE, markets directly predict an end to CB monetarism, as it has been practiced for decades.

3 - (more speculative) ...Lockdowns and such accelerate digitisation and its associated centralisation. E Commerce over physical retail. Netflix over theatres. Etrc. Empirically, digital goods, especially in the hands of very large companies, produce much higher profit margins and/or growth rates. This translates directly into market cap. IE, if $10bn of retails spending/revenue moves from traditional retail to amazon, this is a (substantially) plus-sum game in terms of total market cap.

In any case, this isn't unprecedented. Wars & post war demilitarization have played similar, paradoxical roles before. Conclusions in the past have also been similar... that public spending and the health of the private economy are often complimentary, rather than competitive.

Moving forward, whether or not a majority of US spending is done by the government, all USD spending originates in government money printing. That much is no longer deniable. A view of the world where money originates in private markets, funding government spending via taxation is no longer viable.

IMO, a compromise that doesn't involve central planning is redistribution, either directly or via taxation. There just seems to be more reluctance around the latter than the former, once you get into specific policy cases.

Re: The Incoming Currency War

#15
post #7

So... digitisation certainly has a lot of disruption potential. I would frame it differently though... I also don't think it's the only factor. First, digitisation has already happened. Most money has been digital for a long time. The full consequences of digitisation just haven't materialised yet. Centralisation of the banking & financial services world, regulation, cascading structure (clearing houses, etc) and gen…

> Monetarism seems to have ended Not sure where this is coming from. We're in the prime of expansive monetary policy. As you say, its old constraints have dissolved. That increases its primacy. > Most plausible successors treat fiscal and/or tax policies as part of the monetary system The Eurozone was pioneering in decoupling monetary policy from fiscal authority. The status quo being proven isn't exactly revolutiona…

I think we may be using a different definition of monetarism.

I mean the circa 1980-present understanding of money, public debt, and their relationship to inflation, gdp & employment growth. Also, critically, the rules of thumb governing monetary policy. Inflation targets. Interest rates. By "ended" I mean "no longer a consensus opinion, among those that matter."

Public debt, empirically, is not longer thought to be all that inflationary. Low unemployment will no longer be used as a trigger for interest rate increases. Interest rates will no longer be the primary inflation targeting tool. Instead, it will probably be set to zero most of the time. What will be used to impact inflation is still TBD. We might have to wait for actual inflation to occur before we find out. Etc. Monetary policy is built out of such details, and the cascade into a lot more than it may seem at first glance.

A more dramatic change might be issuing currency (eg USD) without issuing an equal and opposite (kinda) number of debt instruments (eg US treasury notes). It's hard to imagine how this would work in a eurozone context. In the US, it would be hugely psychological, but not really that impactful in reality. Likely though, the number of treasury notes held by the fed will just stop being considered important.

>> Eurozone was pioneering in decoupling monetary policy from fiscal authority

Exactly. Monetarism (the monetarism I'm referring to) allows and encourages this.

I'm not predicting or rooting for any kind of institutional "revolution," except perhaps the eurozone/ECB. Institutions (eg ECB, FED, etc) will remain in place. They'll just make their decisions based on a different understanding of macroeconomics. Similar to how the post war Keynsian-Goldbuggish system gave way to monetarism circa 1980.

Re: The Incoming Currency War

#16

Agree with all in this article. +1 for link to Democracy for Realists. If there's one silver lining today, it's that we're coming to terms with our multitude of "folk theories". An encyclopedia spanning critical reassessment of common knowledge and common sense. For more of same: historian Jill Lepore's The Last Archive podcast blew my mind. Highest recommendation. For example, TIL anti-vax is as old as vax. Same tal…

> Now I am starting to acknowledge and recognize reactionaries and unbelief. Constant. Overwhelming. Exhausting.

> Worse, any progress begats pushback, backlash, doubling down.

> It's like we can't win.

> Today, I subscribe to David Graeber's theories for making social progress. Work in the margins. Push forward where you can, strategically. Don't storm the castle. Conserve your strength. Pick your battles. Take the (really) long view.

Do you have any links or references that go into that in more detail? It sounds interesting.

I do kinda feel like too much progress too quickly seems to just break society.

Re: The Incoming Currency War

#17
post #8
post #6

Another day, another "Error establishing a database connection." Could someone tell me why Caching is not on by default for blogging platform?

Because there are 2 very hard things in IT : naming things, cache invalidation and off-by-one errors. I am not making this up. Easier to leave the cache off.

Well yes in but in the context of a simple blogging platform i cant think of a reason why it would be a concern. Most blogging platform are no longer a "blog", but a full feature CMS where caching is hard due to all sort of reasons.

Re: The Incoming Currency War

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Monetarism seems to have ended Not sure where this is coming from. We're in the prime of expansive monetary policy. As you say, its old constraints have dissolved. That increases its primacy. > Most plausible successors treat fiscal and/or tax policies as part of the monetary system The Eurozone was pioneering in decoupling monetary policy from fiscal authority. The status quo being proven isn't exactly revolutiona…

I think we may be using a different definition of monetarism. I mean the circa 1980-present understanding of money, public debt, and their relationship to inflation, gdp & employment growth. Also, critically, the rules of thumb governing monetary policy. Inflation targets. Interest rates. By "ended" I mean "no longer a consensus opinion, among those that matter." Public debt, empirically, is not longer thought to be…

> Interest rates will no longer be the primary inflation targeting tool

Why? We don't have inflation so rates are being kept low. Countries with inflation pressure are raising rates and holding off inflation.

> issuing currency (eg USD) without issuing an equal and opposite (kinda) number of debt instruments

This is how the Federal Reserve has worked for over a century. The Fed doesn't create Treasuries; it absorbs them onto its balance sheet while creating money for the selling bank.

There is theoretically a problem if the Treasury stops issuing debt. This was momentarily considered in the 90s, when the U.S. ran a surplus. But that isn't a problem right now.

> Monetarism (the monetarism I'm referring to) allows and encourages this.

The type of monetarism which encouraged fiscal neutrality was never mainstream. Even in the case of the EU, the presumption was the monetary union would cause fiscal union. A large part of the Eurozone crisis involved recognizing that wasn't a sure thing.

Re: The Incoming Currency War

#19

Agree with all in this article. +1 for link to Democracy for Realists. If there's one silver lining today, it's that we're coming to terms with our multitude of "folk theories". An encyclopedia spanning critical reassessment of common knowledge and common sense. For more of same: historian Jill Lepore's The Last Archive podcast blew my mind. Highest recommendation. For example, TIL anti-vax is as old as vax. Same tal…

> Now I am starting to acknowledge and recognize reactionaries and unbelief. Constant. Overwhelming. Exhausting. > Worse, any progress begats pushback, backlash, doubling down. > It's like we can't win. > Today, I subscribe to David Graeber's theories for making social progress. Work in the margins. Push forward where you can, strategically. Don't storm the castle. Conserve your strength. Pick your battles. Take the…

Maybe start with Utopia of Rules? Even though his books progressively build his world view over time, that might be the most accessible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Utopia_of_Rules

Last year, I binged on his audiobooks (local library), and own the hard copies to leaf thru.

Sorry, can't vouch for how accessible his ideas are. I'm very primed to hear what Graeber has to say. Chomsky, McLuhan, Postman, etc. And every book about policy work (organizing, lobbying) that I can find.

The Democracy Project might be his best primer on his theory of social change. First part is the back story on Occupy Wall Street. The second part is the Anarchist critique of classical Liberals (today's Democrats and Republicans in the USA). As an active member of the Democratic Party, Graeber is very challenging, hard to hear. But ultimately I agree with his observations. TLDR: The answer is always more participatory democracy, and what that'll look like.

(The Democracy Nerd podcast has an episode on Oregon's citizen juries, for just one example of participatory democracy. https://democracynerd.us/episode/exporting-oregon-style-demo...)

"Debt: The first 5,000" reprogrammed my head. Graeber simply tries to answer the question "What is money?" by listing all the different notions thru our known history. (eg We had "virtual currency" centuries ago.) Any one blathering about money, debt, crypto, spending, currency, etc is hard to take seriously if the omit (ignore) the questions Graeber asks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt%3A_The_First_5000_Years

Right now, I totally agree with Graeber's model for advocating change. Based on my own experiences doing policy work, and observing others.

But I don't think his (now decade old) views on money, debt, and power are nearly radical enough. Sadly, Graeber recently passed, so we'll probably never learn his thoughts on modern monetary theory (MMT) and such.

Also, I'm now keen to learn about Marx and Marxism, if only to better understand Graeber's criticisms. I still haven't found anything accessible to noobs like me.

Re: The Incoming Currency War

#20
post #17
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there are 2 very hard things in IT : naming things, cache invalidation and off-by-one errors. I am not making this up. Easier to leave the cache off.

Well yes in but in the context of a simple blogging platform i cant think of a reason why it would be a concern. Most blogging platform are no longer a "blog", but a full feature CMS where caching is hard due to all sort of reasons.

Spell checkers etc.
Post reply on HN