Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus • Hacker News Board

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#11

Post by bwb » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:22 AM UTC

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces?

Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more.

I keep reading about the North American Alliance in sci fi books, how long until the usa, canada and mexico combine to create a bigger economic block?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#12

Post by raverbashing » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:22 AM UTC

desine wrote: post #8

dstick wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read in the newspaper today that the EU issued an ultimatum to Poland: get rid of the unlawful special court that deems itself above the EU law, or face repercussions. Finally they're growing some teeth. https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/europea... However, after Googling for an online source, I came across this article about another ultimatum for justice reform in 2017, and things only got worse…

How terrible that local laws, written and enacted by the voting population they preside over, take precedent over international laws written and enacted by legislators several times more distantly removed from the population. Hopefully the UN gets enough funding to occupy the roles of state and municipal police soon. Then we can free the common man from the tyranny of local government.

You're free to write all local laws you want and the rest of the world is free to not buy anything for you and give you one cent for anything.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#13

Post by raverbashing » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:24 AM UTC

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

You can't fully remove nationalism, it's always going to exist in some way or the other, even in things that have nothing to do with "nations". (Yankees vs. Red Sox for example)

The "no-borders" people are as out of touch with reality as Orban, though in different extremes.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#14

Post by johnnycerberus » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:28 AM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #13

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

You can't fully remove nationalism, it's always going to exist in some way or the other, even in things that have nothing to do with "nations". (Yankees vs. Red Sox for example) The "no-borders" people are as out of touch with reality as Orban, though in different extremes.

Nationalism is a new concept invented by the French. You can't say about Greece that it is/was a nation. The nationalization of Greece's city-states represents a Greek tragedy, one that culminated in economic collapse. People focus on their group and they think that the same rules apply globally, which isn't the case.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#15

Post by jeroenhd » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:28 AM UTC

desine wrote: post #8

dstick wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read in the newspaper today that the EU issued an ultimatum to Poland: get rid of the unlawful special court that deems itself above the EU law, or face repercussions. Finally they're growing some teeth. https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/europea... However, after Googling for an online source, I came across this article about another ultimatum for justice reform in 2017, and things only got worse…

How terrible that local laws, written and enacted by the voting population they preside over, take precedent over international laws written and enacted by legislators several times more distantly removed from the population. Hopefully the UN gets enough funding to occupy the roles of state and municipal police soon. Then we can free the common man from the tyranny of local government.

The whole point of international law is that countries choose to commit to following the same laws. There's no point signing any treaty if you're not planning on actually applying its legislation.

If people they don't like the laws they've committed themselves to, they can choose not to follow them anymore. However, the advantages they receive in return, in this case the freedoms and economic benefits of being in the EU, will also disappear if they decide to play by their own rules. With the massive benefits Poland has gotten from the EU, I don't think it's in their interest to leave, especially since it doesn't have the negotiating power the UK had (and Brexit has been a series of catastrophes nonetheless).

Nobody is forcing these people to follow foreign laws, it's just that they want the benefits without doing anything in return. The EU is not just a trade bloc, it's an institution to create a shared European ideal. They may not like the deal, but they're free to refuse it and negotiate a better one.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#16

Post by pydry » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:29 AM UTC

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

Economic alliances have never been a particularly good way of forming tribal allegiances.

Belonging to a trading bloc doesnt make you actually care about the other group.

Also, replacing "French" nationality with "EU nationality" doesnt get rid of nationalism it just scopes it at a larger level. There exist "EU nationalists" and to be honest, I find them as annoying as any other kind of nationalist.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#17

Post by meibo » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:30 AM UTC

jsbdk wrote: post #9

NicoJuicy wrote: post #2

Orbán is a cancer on Europe, i really the EU has a decent response this time.

I'm not defending his actions as I have no horse in this race, but he seems to have the support of his country - why should the EU be above that?

Because they are an EU member, which comes with certain obligations and values.

If you don't want that part of the deal, you shouldn't get the money either.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#18

Post by jonathanstrange » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:30 AM UTC

jsbdk wrote: post #9

NicoJuicy wrote: post #2

Orbán is a cancer on Europe, i really the EU has a decent response this time.

I'm not defending his actions as I have no horse in this race, but he seems to have the support of his country - why should the EU be above that?

Because any country that joins the EU agrees with the European Union Treaties in a legally binding way, and among other things these guarantee certain minimal democratic standards and human rights in the European Convention on Human Rights. The government of a country cannot just pick those parts of signed and ratified treaties they happen to like at one time or another and reap the benefits of membership without also fulfilling corresponding requirements and duties.

They would have to leave the EU first, which they are free to do at any time. Of course, then they would also not get any membership benefits.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#19

Post by pferde » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:30 AM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #13

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

You can't fully remove nationalism, it's always going to exist in some way or the other, even in things that have nothing to do with "nations". (Yankees vs. Red Sox for example) The "no-borders" people are as out of touch with reality as Orban, though in different extremes.

Fully agree. I believe that taps into many thousands of years of tribalism - every human that ever lived had an "us" group and one or several "them" groups, and inter-group relations were rarely friendly.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#20

Post by daliusd » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 8:30 AM UTC

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

How do you abolish nation? What's wrong with current EU situation endorsing diversity? You can federate EU and abolish national governments and that's happening slowly.