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On the Rock of Gibraltar

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Re: On the Rock of Gibraltar

#11

Post by detritus »

willeh wrote: post #10

It seems to me central to the character of British imperialism, that the domination of geopolitically important region is pursued not because of some inert ethnocentrism but because they believe themselves to be the bearers of a superior social order and that spreading it is the Anglo-Saxon man's burden. Recently this national pride has turned into xenophobia and their prime minister seems more a character of the Mos…

How's the air up there?

The UK government's been half-heartedly trying to offload Gibraltar for decades now, but the local populace have pretty much unanimously set against any such effort, especially after the Border Closure brought about by the less than wonderful post-Franco Government.

The Britain you're railing against hasn't existed as it does in your mind in 60 years.

Re: On the Rock of Gibraltar

#12

Post by detritus »

philjohn wrote: post #7
elliekelly wrote: post #3

Gibraltar’s airport is one of the weirdest and coolest I’ve ever seen: https://www.amusingplanet.com/2011/11/gibraltar-airport-worl... You just casually walk and drive across the runway a few minutes after a plane lands. Their ATC must have quite a lot on their plate. But Gibraltar has managed to efficiently pack a lot of services onto that one small rock.

It's great fun - it was going to be changed when the joint airport was planned with a relief road going around and under it, in a way, I'm glad they didn't do that. It's also the runway for the RAF base, and holds the record for airport closest to the town centre it serves, at 500m.

The tunnel is actually still on, and should be completed by the end of the year.

Re: On the Rock of Gibraltar

#13

Post by adwww »

elliekelly wrote: post #3

Gibraltar’s airport is one of the weirdest and coolest I’ve ever seen: https://www.amusingplanet.com/2011/11/gibraltar-airport-worl... You just casually walk and drive across the runway a few minutes after a plane lands. Their ATC must have quite a lot on their plate. But Gibraltar has managed to efficiently pack a lot of services onto that one small rock.

"Cars wait patiently as a Jumbo taxies on the runway"

The photo caption under a photo of what is clearly some sort of regional narrow-body.

Re: On the Rock of Gibraltar

#14

Post by happy_path »

detritus wrote: post #11
willeh wrote: post #10

It seems to me central to the character of British imperialism, that the domination of geopolitically important region is pursued not because of some inert ethnocentrism but because they believe themselves to be the bearers of a superior social order and that spreading it is the Anglo-Saxon man's burden. Recently this national pride has turned into xenophobia and their prime minister seems more a character of the Mos…

How's the air up there? The UK government's been half-heartedly trying to offload Gibraltar for decades now, but the local populace have pretty much unanimously set against any such effort, especially after the Border Closure brought about by the less than wonderful post-Franco Government. The Britain you're railing against hasn't existed as it does in your mind in 60 years.

The border has been opened since 1982, what post-Franco Government issues are you talking about?

Speaking of Gibraltar, UK occupied the Isthmus of Gibraltar in 1815, where Spain's Government ceded the Isthmus for the duration of a yellow fever epidemic... And it's been occupied until now.

I'm afraid the attitude of the UK with respect to the rest of the world keeps being the same. Some examples:

- Brexit and post-negotiation with EU.

- Northern Ireland status.

Re: On the Rock of Gibraltar

#15

Post by mc32 »

happy_path wrote: post #14
detritus wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's the air up there? The UK government's been half-heartedly trying to offload Gibraltar for decades now, but the local populace have pretty much unanimously set against any such effort, especially after the Border Closure brought about by the less than wonderful post-Franco Government. The Britain you're railing against hasn't existed as it does in your mind in 60 years.

The border has been opened since 1982, what post-Franco Government issues are you talking about? Speaking of Gibraltar, UK occupied the Isthmus of Gibraltar in 1815, where Spain's Government ceded the Isthmus for the duration of a yellow fever epidemic... And it's been occupied until now. I'm afraid the attitude of the UK with respect to the rest of the world keeps being the same. Some examples: - Brexit and post-neg…

The locals had a referendum about reverting to Spain and overwhelmingly disapproved.

In this case the local population wants to remain British. So it would be against self determination to return it to Spain.

Same for Ceuta on the Spanish side of things, or, is Ceuta diffetent?

Re: On the Rock of Gibraltar

#16

Post by detritus »

happy_path wrote: post #14
detritus wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's the air up there? The UK government's been half-heartedly trying to offload Gibraltar for decades now, but the local populace have pretty much unanimously set against any such effort, especially after the Border Closure brought about by the less than wonderful post-Franco Government. The Britain you're railing against hasn't existed as it does in your mind in 60 years.

The border has been opened since 1982, what post-Franco Government issues are you talking about? Speaking of Gibraltar, UK occupied the Isthmus of Gibraltar in 1815, where Spain's Government ceded the Isthmus for the duration of a yellow fever epidemic... And it's been occupied until now. I'm afraid the attitude of the UK with respect to the rest of the world keeps being the same. Some examples: - Brexit and post-neg…

So you're familiar with the Guarda Civil's regular incursions into Gibraltar waters and their frequent games at the border, slowing things down so that crossing takes many, many hours? Such actions happened prior to the treaty of Maastricht in '92 and during Britain's membership of the EU and has continued post-Brexit and will do ever more, I imagine. Gibraltar's a handy distraction whenever Madrid has problems it'd rather not have in focus.

My memory of local Gibraltarian history is a bit hazy, but the original borderline was drawn far beyond the isthmus, deep in La linea itself. Prior to about the mid 90s, the connecting area beyond the frontier was mostly wasteland, generally taken as Spanish incursion. Now, of course, it is all Spanish. Some might say as a spiteful reaction to Gibraltar's successful reclamation efforts.

Brexit's a mess, no doubting it - but to state that the general British government is has been strongly in support of Brexit would be ... not wholly correct. Unfortunately some toff idiot let the people decide, which is rarely a great idea. Hence the current status of Northern Ireland, which is also a long-standing intractable dilemma. Solutions are easy, if you're content to seriously piss off a few million people.

It's easy to hate on Britain, I get it. It's a bit passé and one-dimensional though.

ed - ah. you're Spanish? Gotcha.

Re: On the Rock of Gibraltar

#17

Post by Mordisquitos »

detritus wrote: post #16
happy_path wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The border has been opened since 1982, what post-Franco Government issues are you talking about? Speaking of Gibraltar, UK occupied the Isthmus of Gibraltar in 1815, where Spain's Government ceded the Isthmus for the duration of a yellow fever epidemic... And it's been occupied until now. I'm afraid the attitude of the UK with respect to the rest of the world keeps being the same. Some examples: - Brexit and post-neg…

So you're familiar with the Guarda Civil's regular incursions into Gibraltar waters and their frequent games at the border, slowing things down so that crossing takes many, many hours? Such actions happened prior to the treaty of Maastricht in '92 and during Britain's membership of the EU and has continued post-Brexit and will do ever more, I imagine. Gibraltar's a handy distraction whenever Madrid has problems it'd…

> So you're familiar with the Guarda Civil's regular incursions into Gibraltar waters

The primary bone of contention regarding that is whether Gibraltar has its own territorial waters or not. In summary, Spain argues that the Treaty of Utrecht only ceded the land of Gibraltar and not any rights to the waters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_Gibraltar#Territoria...

Re: On the Rock of Gibraltar

#18

Post by Mordisquitos »

mc32 wrote: post #15
happy_path wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The border has been opened since 1982, what post-Franco Government issues are you talking about? Speaking of Gibraltar, UK occupied the Isthmus of Gibraltar in 1815, where Spain's Government ceded the Isthmus for the duration of a yellow fever epidemic... And it's been occupied until now. I'm afraid the attitude of the UK with respect to the rest of the world keeps being the same. Some examples: - Brexit and post-neg…

The locals had a referendum about reverting to Spain and overwhelmingly disapproved. In this case the local population wants to remain British. So it would be against self determination to return it to Spain. Same for Ceuta on the Spanish side of things, or, is Ceuta diffetent?

I agree on the legitimacy of the overwhelming results of the Gibraltarian sovereignty referendums, but Ceuta and Melilla are indeed different. They are integral parts of Spanish territory as much as the Scilly Islands are integral parts of the UK.

Re: On the Rock of Gibraltar

#19

Post by detritus »

Mordisquitos wrote: post #17
detritus wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're familiar with the Guarda Civil's regular incursions into Gibraltar waters and their frequent games at the border, slowing things down so that crossing takes many, many hours? Such actions happened prior to the treaty of Maastricht in '92 and during Britain's membership of the EU and has continued post-Brexit and will do ever more, I imagine. Gibraltar's a handy distraction whenever Madrid has problems it'd…

> So you're familiar with the Guarda Civil's regular incursions into Gibraltar waters The primary bone of contention regarding that is whether Gibraltar has its own territorial waters or not. In summary, Spain argues that the Treaty of Utrecht only ceded the land of Gibraltar and not any rights to the waters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_Gibraltar#Territoria...

Given the Convention of the High Seas was only formalised in 1958 - 245 years after the Treaty of Utrecht - that seems like a bit of a curious drum for Spain to keep banging. A not unsurprising drum, but .. well, Spain.

To be clear - I love Spain and its inhabitants - my folks live there to this day, near Gibraltar. I dislike my own government and I dislike the Spanish government, the latter of which I was subject to many petulant irritations when I lived in Gibraltar. There are no winners there.

The stupid thing is - prior to my moving to Britain at the end of the 90s, I honestly thought that relations were warming to the point where it was not inconceivable that Gibraltar's status with Spain might change favourably. Perhaps even joint sovereignty, or something.

Actions by the Spanish government have since nixed any such good nature and things are as bad as they were during the border closure years. They don't do themselves any favours.

- ed: oh, I should've clicked your link! Yes, that is a better reference than my likely-unrelated CotHS.

Re: On the Rock of Gibraltar

#20

Post by acjohnson55 »

It's a unique place to visit. When you come from Spain, you park near the border, and you walk across the runway of the airport, which is situated astride the isthmus that connects the rock to the mainland. And as mentioned in the article, the view from the southern tip is special. I've never been disappointed by making the effort to visit the funny little enclaves that captured my interest as a map-loving kid. If we had had time, we would have crossed the straits to visit Ceuta and Melila, Spains exclaves on the Moroccan coast. I've always found it ironic that Spain has demanded Morocco back from Britain, while fiercely defending their own similar territories a couple dozen miles away.
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