Live data from Hacker News

European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

eci-ubi.eu

11–20 of 155 posts

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#11
post #3

How does that work across the EU though? Eastern Europe has minimum wages of just a few EUR/hr.

UBI is supposed to be a baseline guarantee, so it would be quite OK to size it for the cheapest, least developed areas in the EU free-movement area. This should be coupled with very low or non-existent taxation of entry-level wages, so this "low" UBI would still be a meaningful subsidy even in the wealthiest areas of the EU.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#12
post #9
post #3

How does that work across the EU though? Eastern Europe has minimum wages of just a few EUR/hr.

No reason why the UBI needs to be a flat universal rate rather than adjusted based off local economic factors.

How would that work in practice? Wouldn't people just move to the higher UBI areas?

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#13
post #3

How does that work across the EU though? Eastern Europe has minimum wages of just a few EUR/hr.

I did not read this proposal, but if it is meant to pass as an EU directive, it will then require the member states to ratify it as an actual law, following the general principles contained in the directive. So for example, if the EU directive that passes says "The amount of the UBI has to be between 50% and 80% the average salary", the countries can set a number that way, which can be revised or not in the future, etc. That's how it usually works, for example PSD2, about payment services, had general ideas that obviously member states implemented differently in the details.

In theory, if a member state implements a directive in a way that is not faithful, it might risk a fine from the EU, but member states generally do not care much about it, I am not even sure if all of the fines that have been issued in the past have been paid...

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#14
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No reason why the UBI needs to be a flat universal rate rather than adjusted based off local economic factors.

How would that work in practice? Wouldn't people just move to the higher UBI areas?

The higher UBI areas would also be higher cost of living areas so in the right setup there would be little incentive to move just for UBI benefits.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is it doesn't :-)

A lazy answer if so, and a disappointing take on organizing society if that’s considered acceptable.

If you really want to rebut his comment, tell us how it would work ( including where the money would come from ). Your comment is as lazy.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#16
Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote.

From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win for a sufficiently narrow group of people. You're basically taking wealth from the top X of society and transferring it to the bottom 1-X, where X is probably somewhere in the range of 30-70%. This is too wide for the strategy to work effectively. Either no one really feels like they're winning that much, or the cost to the losers is so high that they're going to fight tooth and nail to stop it.

That's just the implementation challenge I see from the political angle. I also think there are a ton of problems with UBI and it would probably be very economically and socially destructive, but that's a separate argument from the fact that it's going to be very difficult to implement in a democracy.

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#17
post #3

How does that work across the EU though? Eastern Europe has minimum wages of just a few EUR/hr.

UBI is supposed to be a baseline guarantee, so it would be quite OK to size it for the cheapest, least developed areas in the EU free-movement area. This should be coupled with very low or non-existent taxation of entry-level wages, so this "low" UBI would still be a meaningful subsidy even in the wealthiest areas of the EU.

How would it be meaningful when the rent you need to pay in Munich is several times what you need to live in eastern Poland?

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#18
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No reason why the UBI needs to be a flat universal rate rather than adjusted based off local economic factors.

How would that work in practice? Wouldn't people just move to the higher UBI areas?

Freedom of movement in the EU is conditional on you contributing to the economy; if you move just for the benefits, you will be kicked out (in theory)

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#19

[flagged]

Wow. Isn't that a bit extreme? I don't think you fully appreciate how "normal life" depends on having a third party being obliged to do something for you.

Your libertarian success is predicated on a functioning society, with a certain level of peace and mutual trust etc.

History of civilization shows various ways to achieving various degrees of internal peace and mutual trust required for free enterprise to flourish, and all had some form of "obligation" baked in (religious or secular rule)

Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI

#20
post #3

How does that work across the EU though? Eastern Europe has minimum wages of just a few EUR/hr.

This would probably be implement as a Directive (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_(European_Union)), meaning individual EU countries need to devise their own laws on how to reach the goal of an UBI.

The amount of UBI will most likely depend on how much money an individual needs to buy food, pay rent and pay basic utilities, in a given country.

Post reply on HN