Saw a video today of a simulated collapse that suggests a possible failure mode given the likely parking garage collapse that occurred before primary collapse:
Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings
11–20 of 114 posts
Re: Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings
#12One of the worst things about these disasters is that we will get months of daily reports of things being "hinted at". All the noise means that when the final cause is found, no one will care anymore or remember or they'll remember wrong and swear it was all to do with sinkholes or whatever. We need some quite and some rapid inspection of other buildings. Not hints and opinions.
Re: Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings
#13This is a single observation of a discrepancy from a small area in a multi-month long investigation. It's hardly worth commenting on, never mind speculating and extrapolating from.
Re: Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings
#14One of the worst things about these disasters is that we will get months of daily reports of things being "hinted at". All the noise means that when the final cause is found, no one will care anymore or remember or they'll remember wrong and swear it was all to do with sinkholes or whatever. We need some quite and some rapid inspection of other buildings. Not hints and opinions.
I'm just waiting for somebody to blame 5G.
Re: Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings
#15The design drawings being referenced. Are they public documents, or I suppose I'm asking, how did those engineers get a hold of it? Can I, a public person get it? This isn't something I've thought about until now, are all buildings' drawings available at some... Central authority, an archive?
In Florida, with very limited exceptions, documents related to building permits are public records. Florida has a very aggressive “sunshine law.” Almost all public records fall under it and nearly any time two or more elected officials meet requires public notice and public access (again with limited exceptions).
Re: Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings
#16One of the worst things about these disasters is that we will get months of daily reports of things being "hinted at". All the noise means that when the final cause is found, no one will care anymore or remember or they'll remember wrong and swear it was all to do with sinkholes or whatever. We need some quite and some rapid inspection of other buildings. Not hints and opinions.
I'm just waiting for somebody to blame 5G.
Mole people!
Re: Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings
#17> Mr. Kilsheimer cautioned that it is common in construction for the final product to differ from drawn designs. Yes, and there's also a decent history of structural failure, or nearly so, from that particular habit. The Hyatt walkway collapse ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse... ) is one of the better known - designed one way, built another so it would be easier and cheaper to build, and…
Reminded me of this /r/tfts post.
https://www.reddit.com/r/talesfromtechsupport/comments/5s9mr...
Re: Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings
#18The design drawings being referenced. Are they public documents, or I suppose I'm asking, how did those engineers get a hold of it? Can I, a public person get it? This isn't something I've thought about until now, are all buildings' drawings available at some... Central authority, an archive?
I can't find them now because the Google search results for the topic are too noisy but I remember immediately after the condo collapse I downloaded the detailed plans of the building from the city's website. These are not the original drawings, but those submitted for the structural work that was to happen.
https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/docs/default-source/default...
Re: Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings
#19The building collapsed because there was less steel due to corrosion than in the design drawings…less concrete too due to spalling.
But mainly it collapsed because the-building-is-falling-apart issues were not addressed despite being obvious even to lay people.
More steel might have delayed the collapse. It would not have avoided it altogether.
Re: Condo wreckage hints at less steel in columns than design drawings
#20The design drawings being referenced. Are they public documents, or I suppose I'm asking, how did those engineers get a hold of it? Can I, a public person get it? This isn't something I've thought about until now, are all buildings' drawings available at some... Central authority, an archive?
The answer is "it depends" on the particular city, county, and/or state. Florida is a little unusual in that state law makes a very wide range of information public and easy to get. In this case, the town has actually posted all the relevant documents on their website ( https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/departments-services/town-c... ), so you can just click that link to get the plans. Other places have varying levels…
Thanks so much. That was useful to learn.