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Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

pursuit.unimelb.edu.au

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Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#11

Post by gfodor »

th0ma5 wrote: post #8
gfodor wrote: post #4

I don't understand how ostensibly smart people keep making the same error, time and time again. First, they see the other tribe's worst members making false claims, engaging in fearmongering, or worse. Then they consider the direct opposite position. In this case, it's "vaccines are dangerous" vs "vaccines are completely safe." Then, they cherry pick analytical frames which validate the latter position. And of course…

I feel like you're trying to hedge the argument and being fair to both sides but honestly one side is wrong and you're just going to have to decide which one it is.

False. It could very well turn out that mRNA vaccines specifically have long term side effects with other medications or underlying conditions we do not yet understand, which would, for example, warrant the choice of not using them in children, who present low risk to COVID. This may not mean not vaccinating overall, but it could determine which vaccine to choose from the selection of mechanisms. Not mRNA vaccines in general, but this specific mRNA vaccine, which causes your body to synthesize this specific protein.

edit to respond to your deleted comment: the falsifiable claim you made is that one side is right and the other is wrong, when it could be both sides are wrong for different reasons. and I was eagerly vaccinated in February, given COVID was plausibly a life-threatening illness to me given underlying lung damage.

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#12

Post by IdontRememberIt »

gfodor wrote: post #4

I don't understand how ostensibly smart people keep making the same error, time and time again. First, they see the other tribe's worst members making false claims, engaging in fearmongering, or worse. Then they consider the direct opposite position. In this case, it's "vaccines are dangerous" vs "vaccines are completely safe." Then, they cherry pick analytical frames which validate the latter position. And of course…

My wife has a "light" autoimmune condition. She is very sensitive to this topic. She was strongly recommended by several doctors to not be vaccinated. Not because of the short term possible effects but because of the unknown possible undocumented side effect which could be "triggered" in a distant future.

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#13

Post by [deleted] »

gfodor wrote: post #11
th0ma5 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you're trying to hedge the argument and being fair to both sides but honestly one side is wrong and you're just going to have to decide which one it is.

False. It could very well turn out that mRNA vaccines specifically have long term side effects with other medications or underlying conditions we do not yet understand, which would, for example, warrant the choice of not using them in children, who present low risk to COVID. This may not mean not vaccinating overall, but it could determine which vaccine to choose from the selection of mechanisms. Not mRNA vaccines in…

[deleted]

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#14

Post by CorrectHorseBat »

sleavey wrote: post #6

It's worth noting that the risk of death stated for AstraZenica in this article, one in two million, surely relies on proper and rigorous reporting of the causes of deaths. As a thought experiment, let's say someone aged 65 happens to die one month after having received the first dose of the vaccine. Are we sure that the local coroner will check whether the vaccine had anything to do with their death if there is some…

And what about the other way around? What is the chance that a 65 year old randomly dies of something that could be misattributed to the covid vaccine. It would only take 2 misattributions for the risk to be zero.

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#15

Post by splistud »

gfodor wrote: post #4

I don't understand how ostensibly smart people keep making the same error, time and time again. First, they see the other tribe's worst members making false claims, engaging in fearmongering, or worse. Then they consider the direct opposite position. In this case, it's "vaccines are dangerous" vs "vaccines are completely safe." Then, they cherry pick analytical frames which validate the latter position. And of course…

it's not an error, it's a goal

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#16

Post by briefcomment »

th0ma5 wrote: post #10
briefcomment wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Therefore, it is unfair to suggest that an individual who sees themselves as low risk to COVID, and potentially exposing themselves to a yet-to-be-fully-understood drug, does not have a valid dilemma in the choice around vaccines. Especially if the person has already had Covid, since natural immunity is arguably comparable to vaccine protection, and vaccine side-effects are arguably more pronounced in those who hav…

Short-term reaction side effects are not the same as any potential long-term side effects. The long-term effects of being infected with the disease are definitely known to be worse than any unknown potential long term side effects that are suspected so far of the vaccine.

You misunderstood. I'm talking about those who have already been infected.

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#17

Post by th0ma5 »

gfodor wrote: post #11
th0ma5 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you're trying to hedge the argument and being fair to both sides but honestly one side is wrong and you're just going to have to decide which one it is.

False. It could very well turn out that mRNA vaccines specifically have long term side effects with other medications or underlying conditions we do not yet understand, which would, for example, warrant the choice of not using them in children, who present low risk to COVID. This may not mean not vaccinating overall, but it could determine which vaccine to choose from the selection of mechanisms. Not mRNA vaccines in…

We know that the disease itself has long term effects and they are showing up. We don't have any evidence yet that there are any long-term side effects to any of the vaccines. There have been some that of course have had heart problems or death, but those are rare, and are heavily outweighed by the benefits of the vaccine.

I guess I hear your point that we should defer to knowledge as it is gained, and that's a good point for sure.

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#18

Post by th0ma5 »

IdontRememberIt wrote: post #12
gfodor wrote: post #4

I don't understand how ostensibly smart people keep making the same error, time and time again. First, they see the other tribe's worst members making false claims, engaging in fearmongering, or worse. Then they consider the direct opposite position. In this case, it's "vaccines are dangerous" vs "vaccines are completely safe." Then, they cherry pick analytical frames which validate the latter position. And of course…

My wife has a "light" autoimmune condition. She is very sensitive to this topic. She was strongly recommended by several doctors to not be vaccinated. Not because of the short term possible effects but because of the unknown possible undocumented side effect which could be "triggered" in a distant future.

That doesn't sound grounded in science?

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#19

Post by cortic »

th0ma5 wrote: post #10
briefcomment wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Therefore, it is unfair to suggest that an individual who sees themselves as low risk to COVID, and potentially exposing themselves to a yet-to-be-fully-understood drug, does not have a valid dilemma in the choice around vaccines. Especially if the person has already had Covid, since natural immunity is arguably comparable to vaccine protection, and vaccine side-effects are arguably more pronounced in those who hav…

Short-term reaction side effects are not the same as any potential long-term side effects. The long-term effects of being infected with the disease are definitely known to be worse than any unknown potential long term side effects that are suspected so far of the vaccine.

>The long-term effects of being infected with the disease are definitely known to be worse than any unknown..

Seems an indefensible statement. You can't possibly know how 'bad' the unknown is, its unknown.

Re: Getting a Covid jab is safer than taking aspirin

#20

Post by th0ma5 »

briefcomment wrote: post #16
th0ma5 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Short-term reaction side effects are not the same as any potential long-term side effects. The long-term effects of being infected with the disease are definitely known to be worse than any unknown potential long term side effects that are suspected so far of the vaccine.

You misunderstood. I'm talking about those who have already been infected.

Right. We know that they will have long-term effects that people who were vaccinated and never contracted it won't get is all that I'm saying. We simply don't know about any long-term effects of the vaccine though, so it is unfair to even begin to speculate or compare the two.
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