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Is There Anything Good About Men?

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Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#11

Post by onemoreact »

JonnieCache wrote: post #4

The problem with this essay is that is paints us as slaves to our genes. Since Dawkins became fashionable, it is now normal to portray human beings as nothing more than meat-based mechanisms for storing and transporting DNA. This idea is dangerously embedded in society now, and it risks creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of barbarism. What possible motivation does one have for behaving in a manner other than that of…

That's an overly simplistic view of animal behavior. Spend some time studding game theory and you will find cooperation is natural in all but the most ruthless environments. Aka 3 man enter 1 man leave suggests creating a temporary alliance. Shure animals may posture 1v1 but both competitors are trying to avoid injury.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#12

Post by simonsarris »

Joeboy wrote: post #6

> Recent research using DNA analysis answered this question about two years ago. Today’s human population is descended from twice as many women as men. Does anyone know what research he's referring to?

He is almost certainly referring to research based on Mitochondrial Eve being far, far older than Mitochondrial Adam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve#Not_a_contemp...

Initial studies, such as Thomson et al. 2000[7] proposed that Y-chromosome Adam lived about 59,000 years ago. This date suggested that Y chromosome Adam lived tens of thousands of years after his female counterpart Mitochondrial Eve, who lived 150,000-200,000 years ago[8]. This date also meant that Y-chromosome Adam lived at a time very close to, and possibly after, the out of Africa migration which is believed to have taken place 50,000-80,000 years ago.

One explanation given for this discrepancy in the dates of Adam and Eve was that females have a better chance of reproducing than males due to the practice of polygyny. When a male individual has several wives, he has effectively prevented other males in the community from reproducing and passing on their y-chromosomes to subsequent generations. On the other hand, polygyny doesn't prevent most females in a community from passing on their mitochondrial DNA to subsequent generations. This differential reproductive success of males and females can lead to fewer male lineages relative to female lineages persisting into the future. These fewer male lineages are more sensitive to drift and would most likely coalesce on a more recent common ancestor. This would potentially explain the more recent dates associated with Y-chromosome Adam.[9][10]

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Adam

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#13

Post by scythe »

Obvious problem: Genghis Khan is dead. The fact that a full third of Asia and consequently a sixth of the whole world has some genetic similarity to Genghis Khan does not make him any less dead. Evolution is not teleological and genes do not "want". Genes just happen; they're chemicals. Working to ensure the continuation of your genes is not mandated or valuable -- it is likely. Your parents probably did, because you exist, and most people are like their parents; modus ponens you probably will. It's not a command or an idea or a system of value, it's a description.

The other obvious problem is that societies which played into the competitive heirarchy were only successful for some weird definitions of successful. If the Mongol empire is your idea of success, you have some crazy ideas about success, because the empire flared up and disappeared within 100 years, leaving Asia in ruins. On the other hand, the British and their methodical boringness not only conquered the world but lived to tell of it, and they did so largely by exploiting the willingness of less organized and "fair" societies to turn on each other -- how, precisely, did the tiny island of Britain conquer all of India (which had 20 times as many people)? Mostly because the Indians of the 19th century were backstabbing assholes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_Rule

And how were the British kicked out of India? Well, by none other than some pacifist self-sacrificing guy named Mohandas Gandhi.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#14

Post by reasonattlm »

Apparently the existence of men, or more accurately some portions of the male genome coupled with the processes of epigenetic imprinting, is shortening everyone's lifespan. See:

http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2011/07/continued-investi...

http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2010/12/an-update-on-mice...

http://www.fightaging.org/archives/2011/03/rasgrf1-deficienc...

For what it's worth.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#15

Post by bonch »

JairusKhan wrote: post #10

"In the 19th century in America, middle-class girls and women played piano far more than men. Yet all that piano playing failed to result in any creative output." Well, I'm convinced!

That's an awesome tactic. Take one statement out of an entire essay without context and just sarcastically reply to it to dismiss the whole essay.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#16

Post by JonnieCache »

onemoreact wrote: post #11
JonnieCache wrote: post #4

The problem with this essay is that is paints us as slaves to our genes. Since Dawkins became fashionable, it is now normal to portray human beings as nothing more than meat-based mechanisms for storing and transporting DNA. This idea is dangerously embedded in society now, and it risks creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of barbarism. What possible motivation does one have for behaving in a manner other than that of…

That's an overly simplistic view of animal behavior. Spend some time studding game theory and you will find cooperation is natural in all but the most ruthless environments. Aka 3 man enter 1 man leave suggests creating a temporary alliance. Shure animals may posture 1v1 but both competitors are trying to avoid injury.

The highly questionable practice of applying game theory to human psychology is also dangerous IMO. It didn't get anyone anywhere in the cuban missile crisis, and it won't help us understand the "problem of altruism" either.

People are not rational! This is demonstrably true. Even if they were uber-rational, they never have enough data about the world to make useful rational decisions WRT maximising gene propagation through strategic altruism.

It is very telling that this modern notion whereby every time someone acts selflessly towards another they are in fact acting with laser-precise logic in their own interests was developed by the RAND corporation at the height of 1950s/60s cold-war paranoia.

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#17

Post by matwood »

JonnieCache wrote: post #4

The problem with this essay is that is paints us as slaves to our genes. Since Dawkins became fashionable, it is now normal to portray human beings as nothing more than meat-based mechanisms for storing and transporting DNA. This idea is dangerously embedded in society now, and it risks creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of barbarism. What possible motivation does one have for behaving in a manner other than that of…

The problem with this essay is that is paints us as slaves to our genes.

Reminds me of what a friend of mine used to tell his girlfriend when she would catch him looking at other girls walking by.

"I can't fight thousands of years of evolution." :)

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#19

Post by fexl »

matwood wrote: post #17
JonnieCache wrote: post #4

The problem with this essay is that is paints us as slaves to our genes. Since Dawkins became fashionable, it is now normal to portray human beings as nothing more than meat-based mechanisms for storing and transporting DNA. This idea is dangerously embedded in society now, and it risks creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of barbarism. What possible motivation does one have for behaving in a manner other than that of…

The problem with this essay is that is paints us as slaves to our genes. Reminds me of what a friend of mine used to tell his girlfriend when she would catch him looking at other girls walking by. "I can't fight thousands of years of evolution." :)

And if she says "Men are no good", he can reply "Hey, somebody's gotta do the math!" ;)

Re: Is There Anything Good About Men?

#20

Post by sandstrom »

gte910h wrote: post #9

Lots of positions, but very little citations to research, etc that backs it up. I'm curious how many of his contentions are borne up by science (other than the outlier study).

I think the main reason is that this is a speech (transcribed). Hence the lack of citation and references, together with rhetorical questions and phrasings more suitable for verbal performance.
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