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Thursday was fish day in the USSR

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Re: Thursday was fish day in the USSR

#11

> Collectivization and aggressive food taxes on the peasantry had led to a pig breeding crisis, a reduction in livestock and, ultimately, mass famine in 1930-33. Ah, the malicious incompetence of Soviet ideology is why they had "fish day." I remember a joke from visiting Ukraine. "A sausage is the best fish." They had a lot of wonderful sausages too...

Collectivization was about crushing the independent peasantry, which was created about 15 years before, when the Bolsheviks confiscated land from large landowners hand handed it to landless peasants. It created a class which was too pro-capitalist and too economically independent for the later Bolsheviks' taste. So the land was effectively taken back again.

But the aggressive food taxes were not incompetence, but a calculated sacrifice.

Food was one of the very few items the young USSR was able to export. It was paid in gold, because the Bretton Woods system was still in force, and real currencies were backed with gold. Yes, the USSR exported a lot of food right at the time its own citizens were dying from famine.

The USSR then paid that gold for technology, in particular, for buying entire factories from the US. American firms built a number of large car, truck, and tractor factories, and taught the workers the then-current advanced manufacturing technologies. These factories were later converted to produce military trucks and tanks, which played a key role in WWII.

BTW the Soviets were shrewd and bold, and of course cheated: they did not pay the last tranche of the gold once the last factory was completed according to the contract. In a few years, WWII started, and the point became moot for decades.

Re: Thursday was fish day in the USSR

#12
post #4

At first I wondered why bother. If there's a famine or a meat shortage, wouldn't people turn to other foods on their own? So it seemed unnecessary and superfluous. But I suppose there's another possible reason. If you can't give people what they want (meat), give them something else (fish) and try to convince them they do want it. If you can actually pull that off, then maybe it makes you look better and/or makes the…

>If there's a famine or a meat shortage, wouldn't people turn to other foods on their own? So it seemed unnecessary and superfluous. No, what will happen is some people will get meat for the week in their shop, and some will get none. Imagine meat is like toilet roll, one day a family turns up late to get their food from the store and there is no meat left for them. It's better to avoid situations like this by trying…

Ok but if you turn up at the meat shop and can't get any, wouldn't you then go to __x food shop down the street__ and get something else instead?

Re: Thursday was fish day in the USSR

#13
post #11

> Collectivization and aggressive food taxes on the peasantry had led to a pig breeding crisis, a reduction in livestock and, ultimately, mass famine in 1930-33. Ah, the malicious incompetence of Soviet ideology is why they had "fish day." I remember a joke from visiting Ukraine. "A sausage is the best fish." They had a lot of wonderful sausages too...

Collectivization was about crushing the independent peasantry, which was created about 15 years before, when the Bolsheviks confiscated land from large landowners hand handed it to landless peasants. It created a class which was too pro-capitalist and too economically independent for the later Bolsheviks' taste. So the land was effectively taken back again. But the aggressive food taxes were not incompetence, but a c…

That's what the urban legend tells. Yes, USSR splashed gold left, and right on fancy things from the West, including the Moscow metro, but it wasn't US factories which played anything in USSR's WW2 preparations, or anything.

USSR wasn't any kind of industrial giant by the time WW2 started. That's a purest propaganda myth. Stalin was terrible in running the economy, probably even more than any subsequent USSR's ruler. Sputnik was possible mostly thanks to post-war short growth spurt resulting from undoing Stalin's biggest economic blunders.

Re: Thursday was fish day in the USSR

#14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was much more likely meant to mock the Christian tradition of eating fish (actually the point is, not eating meat, but then people naturally turned to fish) on Fridays (and for the hardcore ones also on Wednesdays). This same Christian tradition has become a bit of a joke nowadays since fish is now more of a luxury and is more expensive and less accessible than meat, which is now super common and much cheaper.

What you're describing is the modern post-vatican II Catholic fasting tradition. If one follows specifically the Russian Orthodox fasting rules strictly, you'd be approximately vegan for half of the year (every wednesday and friday, as well as lent, apostle's fast, dormition fast, nativity fast, a few others sprinkled in, etc). On a conventional strict fast day (other than e.g. Clean Monday in lent where you eat noth…

I doubt it was to mock. Former east block countries had supply issues with meat.

My experience is from Poland where the Party was not only glad that Catholics don't eat meat on Fridays (and you are allowed to eat Fish, but if you don't have it you won't eat it) but also tried to introduce No Meat Monday.

BTW. In 80ties (don't remember exactly when) each family was receiving paper slips that allowed to buy meat (you had to give also money beside the sleep) and some other high value merchandise. If you had children you were given more such slips for meat (and probably other items).

Re: Thursday was fish day in the USSR

#15
post #13
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collectivization was about crushing the independent peasantry, which was created about 15 years before, when the Bolsheviks confiscated land from large landowners hand handed it to landless peasants. It created a class which was too pro-capitalist and too economically independent for the later Bolsheviks' taste. So the land was effectively taken back again. But the aggressive food taxes were not incompetence, but a c…

That's what the urban legend tells. Yes, USSR splashed gold left, and right on fancy things from the West, including the Moscow metro, but it wasn't US factories which played anything in USSR's WW2 preparations, or anything. USSR wasn't any kind of industrial giant by the time WW2 started. That's a purest propaganda myth. Stalin was terrible in running the economy, probably even more than any subsequent USSR's ruler.…

I'm not here to glorify Stalin; he was a pretty bad guy.

But read about Occidental Petroleum, Armand Hammer, and how that guy sold the Ford tractors and built Soviet tractor plants for a nice sum in gold at the time when nobody wanted to touch commerce with USSR with a ten-foot pole. These plants later produced a lot of tanks for WWII.

USSR was not an industrial giant by 1940. Still, without buying Western tech, it would be even less of a giant.

Re: Thursday was fish day in the USSR

#16
post #8

> until the death of Stalin, black and red caviar was very inexpensive and accessible. Actively farmed in the Caspian Sea, it was one of the country’s top exports. What? Why would the death of Stalin impact the price and availability of caviar? Maybe someone else knows the history here? Perhaps the elites, previously held in check by fear of Stalin, began hoarding for themselves and exporting for hard currency?

> What? Why would the death of Stalin impact the price and availability of caviar?

Because it wasn't free economy, but a centrally regulated one. So if Stalin wanted caviar to be cheap for whatever reason, he'd make that happen.

Re: Thursday was fish day in the USSR

#17
post #16
post #8

> until the death of Stalin, black and red caviar was very inexpensive and accessible. Actively farmed in the Caspian Sea, it was one of the country’s top exports. What? Why would the death of Stalin impact the price and availability of caviar? Maybe someone else knows the history here? Perhaps the elites, previously held in check by fear of Stalin, began hoarding for themselves and exporting for hard currency?

> What? Why would the death of Stalin impact the price and availability of caviar? Because it wasn't free economy, but a centrally regulated one. So if Stalin wanted caviar to be cheap for whatever reason, he'd make that happen.

Not that you'd actually be able to buy it unless you were quite privileged...

Re: Thursday was fish day in the USSR

#18
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What? Why would the death of Stalin impact the price and availability of caviar? Because it wasn't free economy, but a centrally regulated one. So if Stalin wanted caviar to be cheap for whatever reason, he'd make that happen.

Not that you'd actually be able to buy it unless you were quite privileged...

Is that true? That seems at odds with what the article says.

> What’s more, until the death of Stalin, black and red caviar was very inexpensive and accessible. Actively farmed in the Caspian Sea, it was one of the country’s top exports. But whereas in tsarist times caviar had been willingly consumed, Soviet people didn’t really get it. Some posters even exhorted: "Make yourself eat caviar."

Why would the propagandists push people to eat foods they couldn’t access?

Re: Thursday was fish day in the USSR

#19
post #15
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what the urban legend tells. Yes, USSR splashed gold left, and right on fancy things from the West, including the Moscow metro, but it wasn't US factories which played anything in USSR's WW2 preparations, or anything. USSR wasn't any kind of industrial giant by the time WW2 started. That's a purest propaganda myth. Stalin was terrible in running the economy, probably even more than any subsequent USSR's ruler.…

I'm not here to glorify Stalin; he was a pretty bad guy. But read about Occidental Petroleum, Armand Hammer, and how that guy sold the Ford tractors and built Soviet tractor plants for a nice sum in gold at the time when nobody wanted to touch commerce with USSR with a ten-foot pole. These plants later produced a lot of tanks for WWII. USSR was not an industrial giant by 1940. Still, without buying Western tech, it w…

Stalin admitted it just once, at the end of the summit in Teheran.

Re: Thursday was fish day in the USSR

#20
post #8

> until the death of Stalin, black and red caviar was very inexpensive and accessible. Actively farmed in the Caspian Sea, it was one of the country’s top exports. What? Why would the death of Stalin impact the price and availability of caviar? Maybe someone else knows the history here? Perhaps the elites, previously held in check by fear of Stalin, began hoarding for themselves and exporting for hard currency?

> What? Why would the death of Stalin impact the price and availability of caviar?

> Maybe someone else knows the history here? Perhaps the elites, previously held in check by fear of Stalin, began hoarding for themselves and exporting for hard currency?

I think it is a pure coincidence caused by the rise of the population and the overfishing of the sturgeon in the Caspian sea.

Sturgeon, that the black caviar comes from, is a large and long-lived fish that is highly prized for its flesh and has been highly sought after mostly because of that. It also «produces» large amounts of roe (i.e. the black caviar) as a «by-product». A mature sturgeon can easily dispense a bucket full of the black caviar or more. The downside is that the sturgeon takes a very long time to grow and mature. Some species can live for up 70 years.

Now, back in the Russian emperial days, the black caviar was a delicacy for the nobility because they had been taught by French teachers at home, spoke French at home and had live-in French chefs / maids that cooked almost exclusively the French haute cuisine for the family. Traditional Russian food was generally frowned upon as something lowly that only the «unwashed masses» were supposed to eat. So it was the French who have taught the Russian nobility to eat and appreaciate the black caviar. It was a popular snack that was served exclusively with the icily cold vodka, but it was also used as an ingredient for a relatively small number of dishes as well. In other news, the demand for the caviar was rather small, and there was a constant huge oversupply of the black caviar, especially in the Caspian sea area. Sturgeon meat and black caviar were supplied to the nobility and the aspiring gentry, to the emperial court, and the black caviar was exported to European markets as an exotic food that originated somewhere in uncharted lands of the Russian Empire.

Then, Russian peasants (who also happened to be fishermen) did not share the taste for the black caviar with the nobility, and, consequently, they ignored it as a food source. The oversupply of the black caviar was fed to pigs and dogs (ugh, omega-3 rich dogs, anyone?), or it was simply thrown away. Sturgeon flesh was equally prized by everyone, though.

As the population in the post-WWII years started exploding, the sturgeon has become overfished, which has led to a sharp decline in the availability of the black caviar whereas the acquired taste for it on a mass scale started driving the increasing demand resulting the black caviar becoming a cultural cliche and a meme that the Russians are trolled for today.

P.S. the red caviar, on the other hand, is an entirely different story as it comes from the fish that inhabits cold seas that have only become more or less accessible and «industrialised» in last 50-60 years. It was not as easily available back in the emperial days, I would imagine (I am afraid, I do not have much information on the subject here). The overfishing of the arctic fish had not been a problem until fairly recently, therefore large supplies of the red caviar flooded the Soviet market making it a «cheaper» and a more easily accesible substitute for the posh, expensive and hard to procure black caviar.

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