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PayPal shuts down long-time Tor supporter

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Re: PayPal shuts down long-time Tor supporter

#11

Post by slownews45 »

tyingq wrote: post #7

I don't understand how it's legal for PayPal to hold his money for 180 days because they don't like the nature of his transactions. Kick him off their platform, sure...that's their prerogative. But why do they get to hold the money hostage?

Uh - because he may be ripping people off or people may file claims for a refund, and if they give it to the scammer it's hard to give get it back to make folks who got ripped off whole?

This is 101 stuff. Credit card companies do this routinely as well. I'm hearing fyre festivals will be harder to get immediate payout on.

Travel does this when businesses are near bust - credit card companies will hold funds.

Re: PayPal shuts down long-time Tor supporter

#12

Post by tyingq »

slownews45 wrote: post #11
tyingq wrote: post #7

I don't understand how it's legal for PayPal to hold his money for 180 days because they don't like the nature of his transactions. Kick him off their platform, sure...that's their prerogative. But why do they get to hold the money hostage?

Uh - because he may be ripping people off or people may file claims for a refund, and if they give it to the scammer it's hard to give get it back to make folks who got ripped off whole? This is 101 stuff. Credit card companies do this routinely as well. I'm hearing fyre festivals will be harder to get immediate payout on. Travel does this when businesses are near bust - credit card companies will hold funds.

It's a 20 year old account, and this activity doesn't seem to be new, or associated with fraud, etc. What aspect of what he's doing seems similar to Fyre? I don't understand the flippant tone.

Re: PayPal shuts down long-time Tor supporter

#14

Post by unethical_ban »

"We don't like what you are doing, and are going to hold your money for six months. I hope you don't subsist on it, or have any business obligations to attend to. We'll call you."

This should be illegal for Paypal to do, period. Absolutely illegal.

And if it is on behalf of a government or banking/fraud regulations, then the person should be referred to relevant agencies.

Let's be clear and drop the pretense: They are confiscating his property.

Re: PayPal shuts down long-time Tor supporter

#15

Post by slownews45 »

unethical_ban wrote: post #14

"We don't like what you are doing, and are going to hold your money for six months. I hope you don't subsist on it, or have any business obligations to attend to. We'll call you." This should be illegal for Paypal to do, period. Absolutely illegal. And if it is on behalf of a government or banking/fraud regulations, then the person should be referred to relevant agencies. Let's be clear and drop the pretense: They ar…

Are you sure it is being confiscated? He will have a claim then.

What can happen is when your credit card / other payment providers cuts you off is that you go out of business. You might fail to provide services to users - so they do a chargeback / ask for a refund from payment provider.

So when a payment provider is shutting you down, they usually want to hold onto some money to be able to handle those refund requests. Very common in travel situations as well.

Re: PayPal shuts down long-time Tor supporter

#16

Post by slownews45 »

tyingq wrote: post #12
slownews45 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh - because he may be ripping people off or people may file claims for a refund, and if they give it to the scammer it's hard to give get it back to make folks who got ripped off whole? This is 101 stuff. Credit card companies do this routinely as well. I'm hearing fyre festivals will be harder to get immediate payout on. Travel does this when businesses are near bust - credit card companies will hold funds.

It's a 20 year old account, and this activity doesn't seem to be new, or associated with fraud, etc. What aspect of what he's doing seems similar to Fyre? I don't understand the flippant tone.

The tech companies are not analyzing things at this level. They close a number of accounts each month. A certain number of those were engaged in fraud and will generate chargeback activity. Others were legit but accepting payments in advance. Once the business is out of business those too will generate chargeback activity. Some are legit but had bad service, lost key employees resulting in complaints. Once the account is shut those also often generate chargebacks.

So they sit on the money for 180 days, it doesn't cost them anything and saves them a big pain in trying to claw money back from any of these folks who may not look at them that fondly after being cutoff for what may have a been a silly reason.

Re: PayPal shuts down long-time Tor supporter

#17

Post by [deleted] »

tyingq wrote: post #12
slownews45 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh - because he may be ripping people off or people may file claims for a refund, and if they give it to the scammer it's hard to give get it back to make folks who got ripped off whole? This is 101 stuff. Credit card companies do this routinely as well. I'm hearing fyre festivals will be harder to get immediate payout on. Travel does this when businesses are near bust - credit card companies will hold funds.

It's a 20 year old account, and this activity doesn't seem to be new, or associated with fraud, etc. What aspect of what he's doing seems similar to Fyre? I don't understand the flippant tone.

[deleted]

Re: PayPal shuts down long-time Tor supporter

#18

Post by mdoms »

slownews45 wrote: post #15
unethical_ban wrote: post #14

"We don't like what you are doing, and are going to hold your money for six months. I hope you don't subsist on it, or have any business obligations to attend to. We'll call you." This should be illegal for Paypal to do, period. Absolutely illegal. And if it is on behalf of a government or banking/fraud regulations, then the person should be referred to relevant agencies. Let's be clear and drop the pretense: They ar…

Are you sure it is being confiscated? He will have a claim then. What can happen is when your credit card / other payment providers cuts you off is that you go out of business. You might fail to provide services to users - so they do a chargeback / ask for a refund from payment provider. So when a payment provider is shutting you down, they usually want to hold onto some money to be able to handle those refund reques…

So PayPal is holding onto his money in case he incurs expenses as a result of going out of business due to PayPal cutting him off? And this seems normal and good to you?

Re: PayPal shuts down long-time Tor supporter

#19

Post by lsaferite »

readflaggedcomm wrote: post #5

>This is the first time we have heard about financial persecution for defending internet freedom in the Tor community. But they don't know that. Paypal refuses to give details. He describes a second recipent, the hosting company, and there could be more. Paypal's fraud and crime detection is pitiful*, and their silence can cover both incompetence and malice. [*] https://slate.com/technology/2020/02/paypal-venmo-iran-…

> they don't know that

Isn't that already covered by

> first time we have heard about

Re: PayPal shuts down long-time Tor supporter

#20

Post by convery »

Holding the money hostage for half a year on a 20 year old account? Not surprising. Paypal and their other entities like Ebay are pretty shit when it comes to nuance and their impact on others.

Had a 15 year old Paypal business account (parent started it and I took it over ~7 years ago) and last year they shut it down because I, as the new owner, was not 18 when the account was created. Nothing from the support but "computer said you bad, nothing we can do".

In Ebays case I sold an item, got the regular email from Ebay (DMARK/SPF/IP verified) that they had received payment and was holding it until the item had been delivered. Then a week later I got another email from them saying they had blocked the buyer for abuse (i.e. a fraudulent transaction to them) and that I shouldn't ship the item they told me to ship a week ago. After 2 months of trying to get through to the support they just claimed that someone spoofed their DMARK, SPF, and servers IP. After explaining how impossible that would be their 'proof' that it was 'spoofed' was that there should be a copy of the message in the Ebay inbox where, after the reply, all messages about the auction ever existing were suddenly gone.

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