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How the UK's online safety bill threatens Matrix

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11–20 of 165 posts

Re: How the UK's online safety bill threatens Matrix

#11

Sad to see UK becoming one of the apologists of internet censorship, closing the gap to the levels of authoritarian countries. Once you have censorship facility in place, the area of its application will only grow. The term "illegal information" is also widely used in Russia for the same purpose.

The cameras tracking everything everywhere in UK would say that it's long been an authoritarian country.

Authoritarianism is a sliding scale. From what I can gather, lots of humans that have any political pull at all tend to be authoritarian (against the kinds of people they don't like, of course).

Re: How the UK's online safety bill threatens Matrix

#12
post #3

> Forcing a “duty of care” responsibility on organisations which operate online will not only drown small and medium sized companies in administrative tasks and costs, it will further accentuate the existing monopolies by Big Tech. I often wonder about this. I mean, just the other day there was an article[1] here about sending GDPR requests to a health non-profit in order to sequence your genes for free. The costs of…

GDPR, or CCPA, isn't all that costly as long as you stop thinking of user data as something for you to harvest, mine, resell and profit from. If you instead treat user data like a security liability, system designs and trade-offs will flow from there. They'll help ensure you design systems that minimise collection and anonymise things early, remove data promptly when no longer needed, and make it easy to audit what data you do hold which in turns makes supporting GDPR requests easy.

The largest cost of GDPR is making that shift for existing companies. If GDPR ends up killing a few companies because of that, I personally don't mind. And if a startup doesn't end up seeing the light of day because it's not possible for them to operate under the conditions that GDPR imposes, then from my point of view the GDPR is doing what I'd like it to do.

Re: How the UK's online safety bill threatens Matrix

#14

Sad to see UK becoming one of the apologists of internet censorship, closing the gap to the levels of authoritarian countries. Once you have censorship facility in place, the area of its application will only grow. The term "illegal information" is also widely used in Russia for the same purpose.

The UK was already heading down that route with the public surveillance cameras, IMHO.

Re: How the UK's online safety bill threatens Matrix

#15
While I agree with their position overall, particularly with the ambiguity of "harmfulness", I think this is not the right tack to take here:

> fails to acknowledge how actually harmful it would be for certain groups of the population to have their real life identity associated with their online identity

No nanny-state-style government is going to buy this argument for a moment, because it requires a certain level of distrust of authority that certainly won't be present in the authorities themselves. Even among the population at large, there are undeniable trends in many countries towards authoritarianism on both the left and the right that are ignored or embraced by a majority (or a large minority) of their respective bases of support.

Combined with prevailing trends against web-based anonymity and concerns over "fake news" and other amplification mechanisms for information warfare, I suspect we will see a further bifurcation into regulated, KYC-style services and unregulated, anonymous communities. Even here on HN, posters and commenters are regularly chastised for failing to adequately disclose their identities when they have a vested interest in the topic under discussion.

Rather, the privacy angle which has been so conveniently mooted by Apple lately is (in my opinion) more palatable to the general public. By giving more responsibility to the service providers, the government is also implicitly giving them more power as well (as censors, if nothing else). But in practice, most people have personally observed that when more power/information is provided to private companies, it leads to a slippery slope of monetization, advertising, and lock-in.

An appeal to this sense of unfairness and power imbalance with companies seems more "sellable" to me than convincing people their governments have nefarious/censorious motives. As a supporting argument, consider the general global consensus on gun control -- if people were willing to believe that their governments were ready to turn on them (in terms of physical oppression) at any moment, there would be more global concern about the physical power disparity between police/military and the civilian populace.

Currently (with some exceptions, e.g. the U.S.), the global consensus is that people are much more willing to trust their police/military with weaponry than their fellow citizens, based on the implicit notion that the likelihood of experiencing harm from the latter is disproportionately more likely than the former.

In contrast, as partially evidenced by the relative growth of Signal as a response to the changes in WhatsApp and the public support for app-tracking changes in iOS, people are demonstrably concerned about privacy in the commercial space.

Thus, I theorize that an appeal to privacy would be more effective: "Under the proposed changes, we would have the ability to do ____, which would exploit your personal, private information for profit. If we can do it, that means ____, ____, and ____ can do it too. Do you want your government giving even more power to private companies to profit off you?"

Re: How the UK's online safety bill threatens Matrix

#16
post #8

I wish there was some sort of island or safe haven country setup by cryptographers so they could safely work on crypto without legal issues or crypto being seen as a munition and a threat to government. We could call it `01` and have it in a non fourteen-eyes jurisdiction preferably as an independent nation. We could export code containing cryptographic algorithms to countries that need it for privacy and safety reas…

We can't have communist countries in latan america because of the good ole u s of a. You think you are going to get some slight utopia that helps people b/c of their ideals? Never going to happen... sadly.

Re: How the UK's online safety bill threatens Matrix

#18
One of the most frustrating things about this legislation is that it's set up so that the only outfits with the resources to do the requested censorship would be a GAFAM. Which is utterly perverse, as on one hand the UK govt is despairing about the extent to which the UK is dependent on Big Tech social media and the control they exert on society... whilst simultaneously pushing through legislation which effectively ensures that GAFAM are the only people who can operate!

The Matrix approach to addressing abuse is https://matrix.org/blog/2020/10/19/combating-abuse-in-matrix... (and we're in the middle of building out the first implementation of the decentralised reputation proposal right now) - but it is not pleasant to think that if a judge considered that approach inadequate, the directors of UK entities providing Matrix hosting (e.g. Element, running matrix.org on behalf of The Matrix.org Foundation) would be eligible for jail time \o/

Needless to say, we're doing our best to explain to the UK Govt that their Bill is throwing out the baby along with bathwater...

Re: How the UK's online safety bill threatens Matrix

#19
post #8

I wish there was some sort of island or safe haven country setup by cryptographers so they could safely work on crypto without legal issues or crypto being seen as a munition and a threat to government. We could call it `01` and have it in a non fourteen-eyes jurisdiction preferably as an independent nation. We could export code containing cryptographic algorithms to countries that need it for privacy and safety reas…

> Cryptography actually is needed for safety more than it is used by undesirable people to commit crimes!

This is actually more because criminals on balance tend to be too dumb to hide their traces than because of any demographic truth. There are a lot of criminals.

Focusing on "crypto" is, I think, a forest for the trees argument. Look instead at anonymity for evidence of where this kind of thing goes. Put up any reasonably anonymous forum where people can interact without their identities being reveals (which often includes, but doesn't always require, some kind of crypto protocol). Within a year it will be filled with criminals. Minor criminals like drug dealers. Worse things like market manipulation and fraudsters. Weapons sales. Black market rings. Revolutionaries of all sorts and sizes. Child porn. Mail order brides and other trafficking trades.

Seriously, run a Tor exit node for a while and see where this goes.

Your neighbors in your imagined "safe haven country for cryptographers" aren't going to be who you think they are.

Re: How the UK's online safety bill threatens Matrix

#20
post #8

I wish there was some sort of island or safe haven country setup by cryptographers so they could safely work on crypto without legal issues or crypto being seen as a munition and a threat to government. We could call it `01` and have it in a non fourteen-eyes jurisdiction preferably as an independent nation. We could export code containing cryptographic algorithms to countries that need it for privacy and safety reas…

Ironically the UK is pretty much a handful of islands. I don't think the islandness means much.
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