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“in the course of your employment” – how common is this in the UK?

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Re: “in the course of your employment” – how common is this in the UK?

#11

Post by taking_counsel »

seangp wrote: post #3

It’s common. I’ve always asked employers to amend this and they happily oblige.

Thanks. Are you aiming for any specific type of employers? SME? Big companies? Start-ups? Every company I've come across say (paraphrasing):

* "It's boilerplate; we can't change it!"

* "We never enforce it, do what you want."

* "Do what you want, who's gonna know?!"

* or some blanket legal statement: "Either your projects fall outside the scope of the clause, in which case you don't need to worry about said clauses, or they fall within the scope of the clause, in which case we are not wavering anything. And finally, its up to you, not us, to judge whether the project falls inside or out of said clause."

I've yet to come across a UK tech company (or R&D company) that has ever taken my concerns seriously. It's starting to bum me out. I don't want to work on releasable products knowing deep down that I might not actually own them.

Re: “in the course of your employment” – how common is this in the UK?

#12

Post by taking_counsel »

foobarbaz33 wrote: post #2

Modern day serfs. Can't let them own something.

Yep, that's my feeling too. I don't know why more people aren't angry about these kinds of clauses?! It boils my piss, I've spent 15+ years developing skills, and I am still now allowed to own the fruits of my labour, produced on my own time and dime!

Re: “in the course of your employment” – how common is this in the UK?

#13

Post by bacbilla »

taking_counsel wrote: post #8
bacbilla wrote: post #4

As someone else has said, it is quite a standard clause. I have had it on most of my contracts, from memory. I sought an employment lawyer's advice on this once (as part of a larger question). The scenario is heavily affected by common law. I am guessing (as this is HN) that you are working in technology. The way it was described to me is that if you work in, say, banking, and you make your own banking app on the sid…

Thanks for the advice. "My best advice is to be transparent with your (potential?) employer (assuming you have nothing to hide) and let them know what you do outside of work hours and see if they will amend your contract suitably." So I'm in this situation at the moment, and I did exactly this. I sought an employment lawyer's advice with my previous contract, any they suggested in future that I do exactly this. I ask…

That sounds like a disappointing attitude from their legal department, but if it's a big company I can see that they don't want to get into those sorts of discussions.

Only you will know the stakes and what you're willing to risk; most judges in the UK are fairly pro-employee and take a dim view of big corporations overreaching their rights (but please don't take this as absolute fact!). If you're not a senior employee and you're doing something like I mentioned in my previous comment (making a game in your spare time), I would personally not worry.

If it's your big idea for your future business and you want to work on it in evenings and weekends, then I would want to be rather more cautious.

Re: “in the course of your employment” – how common is this in the UK?

#14

Post by thorin »

taking_counsel wrote: post #11
seangp wrote: post #3

It’s common. I’ve always asked employers to amend this and they happily oblige.

Thanks. Are you aiming for any specific type of employers? SME? Big companies? Start-ups? Every company I've come across say (paraphrasing): * "It's boilerplate; we can't change it!" * "We never enforce it, do what you want." * "Do what you want, who's gonna know?!" * or some blanket legal statement: "Either your projects fall outside the scope of the clause, in which case you don't need to worry about said clauses,…

If you're in the UK and you're really making something in your spare time that might be worth anywhere near as much as your paid income you should really be contracting/self employed. The company will be wondering why you aren't completely focused on their work as generally managers won't understand why people are doing their work as a hobby as well as having a free time job. I do know a couple of employees who added exemptions to their contracts, but if your aspiration is really to be earning from your own projects you need to be considering contracting.

Re: “in the course of your employment” – how common is this in the UK?

#15

Post by tldrthelaw »

US attorney here (but not your attorney not legal advice etc. etc.), this is standard everywhere. Note that "standard" doesn't mean you can't push back against it. If you think there is sufficient value to be lost, hire an attorney to propose some alternate language that draws the line around the stuff you do at the workplace with employer-owned tools, etc.

Re: “in the course of your employment” – how common is this in the UK?

#16

Post by giantg2 »

bacbilla wrote: post #4

As someone else has said, it is quite a standard clause. I have had it on most of my contracts, from memory. I sought an employment lawyer's advice on this once (as part of a larger question). The scenario is heavily affected by common law. I am guessing (as this is HN) that you are working in technology. The way it was described to me is that if you work in, say, banking, and you make your own banking app on the sid…

Basically the same understanding here (in the US). It's domain specific. I work in finance, so I can't build any investment apps or anything that would potentially compete with my employer. I am allowed to run an unrelated LLC, build a website for it, etc.

Re: “in the course of your employment” – how common is this in the UK?

#17

Post by giantg2 »

muzani wrote: post #5

It's usually not malicious, but lazy. You'll have to propose an alternative. I've seen similar and asked a lawyer to amend it to something like material created using office owned equipment. If you want to go one better, you'll have to say that it's material created for work purposes and then define what the work purpose is. An hour of the lawyer's time is probably cheaper than two hours of your time trying to resear…

"It's usually not malicious, but lazy."

This is a very accurate description of most contracts/laws, and government in general.

Re: “in the course of your employment” – how common is this in the UK?

#19

Post by 2rsf »

foobarbaz33 wrote: post #2

Modern day serfs. Can't let them own something.

It's necessarily correct nor simple. I agree that the choice of words is too wide and companies don't make it easier to understand what is included and what's not, but as an employer I don't want my employees to compete with me while still being employed.
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