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Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

irishstu.com

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Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#11

Post by wccrawford »

JoachimSchipper wrote: post #5
wccrawford wrote: post #2

And as usual, I disagree. When I was just starting my career, I would have gladly worked for free as an intern to get my foot in the door of the industry. Now, I wouldn't have done it for -long-, but internships aren't supposed to last a long time. As it was, instead I spent a year unemployed, and then took a job as a stock clerk at a grocery store. That time would have been much better spent as an intern... Especial…

You may have been better off as an intern, but I could see the argument that if nobody's willing to work for free companies will have to pay a decent wage - a degree of collective bargaining by students and recent graduates who are unwilling to sell their summers for almost no money.

Interns don't produce much output. They're inexperienced. What would take a professional a day to finish might take an intern 2 weeks, and take time from others to boot.

In that situation, the intern should be working for free (for the experience) and the company should consider any actual output to be compensation for the time spent having to help the intern along.

As the post's author noted, the 2 job descriptions he linked to do not fit the above criteria.

Any company that expects actual productivity from an intern is in the wrong.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#12

Post by wccrawford »

deadmansshoes wrote: post #4
wccrawford wrote: post #2

And as usual, I disagree. When I was just starting my career, I would have gladly worked for free as an intern to get my foot in the door of the industry. Now, I wouldn't have done it for -long-, but internships aren't supposed to last a long time. As it was, instead I spent a year unemployed, and then took a job as a stock clerk at a grocery store. That time would have been much better spent as an intern... Especial…

What's wrong with paying at least the minimum wage to interns? I presume you can't claim unemployment benefit if working as an intern, so who is funding an interns living expenses? Unpaid work should be reserved for charitable organisations.

You pay wages to employees. (IE People who produce efficient output.)

You pay experience to interns. (IE People who take time from efficient employees and produce little output.)

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#13

Post by irishstu »

wccrawford wrote: post #9
irishstu wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the reply. In the two examples I linked there was no mention of training. People were required to already have the skills required to do the work.

I agree that those 2 examples are in the wrong. Especially the first one. Experience should never be a requirement for an internship, and a '1 day trial' is absolutely ridiculous for an internship.

Unfortunatly the examples are the rule and not the exception here from the jobs I have seen advertised. Internships (in Ireland) are pretty much seen as "work for me for nothing" rather than any kind of learning experience.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#14

Post by zeemonkee »

Unpaid internships are essentially a form of serfdom.

The serf system in Russia IIRC started with free peasants who sold themselves into slavery to the landowner when they fell into debt - unlike African slaves in the US, who were essentially kidnapped into servitude.

In the same vein people are taking up voluntary servitude in order to get a paid job - sometimes even paying for the privilege.

Moreover - a point not raised in the article - in expensive cities the only way a fresh graduate can survive without salary is if their parents subsidize them. Who can afford to do so ? Rich families. So it's a form of discrimination.

A company has no excuse for not paying at least minimum wage. If you can't afford the employees you need you shouldn't be in business, period. Any company that uses unpaid internships is morally bankrupt and should be boycotted.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#15

Post by kosei »

Personally I got a lot of value out of my unpaid internships (Kate Spade & Sports Illustrated). Though I understand the reasons against it, I got to a) work with a great team, b) make some great business contacts for future job referrals, and c) get experience that looked great on my resume.

That said, I completely understand that my experience was the exception rather than the rule. Plus, both companies I interned at most likely could have afforded to pay me too.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#16

Post by nagnatron »

wccrawford wrote: post #2

And as usual, I disagree. When I was just starting my career, I would have gladly worked for free as an intern to get my foot in the door of the industry. Now, I wouldn't have done it for -long-, but internships aren't supposed to last a long time. As it was, instead I spent a year unemployed, and then took a job as a stock clerk at a grocery store. That time would have been much better spent as an intern... Especial…

It's easy to get an internship today. Douchebag companies who will not pay me at least a minimum wage can have someone completely clueless who knows nothing.

You can get experience and not get paid working on any large open source project. You'll probably get even better mentoring.

In fact, it's not that hard to get paid doing open source work now that you have GSoC.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#17

Post by scottseaward »

The CV still rules when it comes to getting past HR departments and into interview. The HR departments (and employment agencies) I've worked with look directly at the Work Experience section of a CV and then tick off a bunch of boxes for the job they're trying to fill. Unpaid internships are one way to fill a CV with relevant experience. Find a way to bridge that gap and you don't need to do an unpaid internship. I went through 3 months of unpaid work with an ugly little company for exactly this reason, and it paid off, but those were the most trying 3 months of my professional career.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#18

Post by maeon3 »

If you become an unpaid intern, then you better be learning 10 new things per day that you couldn't have learnd any other way. I can see where interning where be beneficial for both individual, company and society. However in the vast majority of cases the intern is just getting ripped off.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#19

Post by zeemonkee »

wccrawford wrote: post #12
deadmansshoes wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with paying at least the minimum wage to interns? I presume you can't claim unemployment benefit if working as an intern, so who is funding an interns living expenses? Unpaid work should be reserved for charitable organisations.

You pay wages to employees. (IE People who produce efficient output.) You pay experience to interns. (IE People who take time from efficient employees and produce little output.)

Complete and utter bullshit.

When I started work I produced little output, because I was a newbie and knew nothing. I was paid just a little over minimum wage - but I still produced, even if it was crappy code and routine tasks nobody else wanted to do.

Companies used to do this all the time - you start at the bottom, fresh out of school, and you have to learn.

But you are still f*ing paid.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#20

Post by nicpottier »

dkersten wrote: post #10
nicpottier wrote: post #7

Perhaps it is different for design, but taking on an intern for a software shop is almost always a greater burden than benefit. I interned at a few different places while in college, and I was definitely way ahead of the class as far as writing useful code. Regardless, the overhead of people bringing you up to speed on their specific projects and processes for only three months of work just doesn't match what you are…

I did a six month (paid) internship when I was in uni and after two weeks of "training", we were pair programming with the fulltime employees. By month three, I was working on core services that are still in use by the company now. So, interns are definitely not always a burden, but I certainly do understand that they often would be, but to be honest, you get what you pay for - if it had been an unpaid internship, I'…

Six months is definitely different, I would agree that in that time you can become effective.

In a way you are agreeing though, as you said, it took two months for you to be working on core services, so there is a significant ramp up time. If we are talking about a summer internship then it is questionable whether you will really add more value than extract. This is irrespective of ability level and just the reality of getting to know an organizations processes, codebase, etc..

In any case, I'm not quite sure what the article's beef is. If there was no market for unpaid internships, then there wouldn't be any. Clearly some interns are finding it worth their while enough to go work for free.

Do totally agree that it is an absolutely awesome funnel for candidates though, and worth drawing those candidates in via pay or other fringe benefits.

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