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Kibbutz

en.wikipedia.org

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Re: Kibbutz

#11

Post by wsc981 »

A kibbutz can be a nice place to get ones mind in order I think.

My brother was depressed at some point and didn't feel motivated anymore with his software engineering job. At some point he got so annoyed with his life and job that he decided to spend some time in a Kibbutz. A half year.

He got some food and lodging and a small amount of money which he would spend in the weekends. While at the Kibbutz he did some gardening, worked in the kitchen, etc... He enjoyed his time there.

And now he's back into a software engineering job :)

Re: Kibbutz

#13

Post by kpoll »

shimonabi wrote: post #10

I have no idea why this is posted on HN. There was an another story here a few days ago about some economics professor turned hardcore free-market objectivist, becase he lived in a kibbutz in his youth. Look, it isn't for everyone, but why not let people live how they want. Some prefer giving up some personal liberty for the collective communal experience.

My guess is that increasingly people are forced to live in cultural Kibbutzim, and the Kibbutz is a famous example of a communal model that has failed for many.

The very top comment of this submission reminds me of the good and bad sides of open source projects.

Another interesting model that sees uptake in the US is the Dan Wei, a corporation that controls the entire life and thoughts of its employees:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_unit

Re: Kibbutz

#14

Post by narrator »

solatic wrote: post #4

Interesting to find this on the front page. I lived on a kibbutz for nearly three years, and left a few years ago. Like most insular communities, there's a lot to like when looking at it from the outside. People live in comfortable homes and have plenty to eat, with plenty of modern accoutrements like Internet access and the like. The community is quiet, with houses linked by footpaths instead of roads. The sense of…

Are there any kibbutzes that make all or some decisions using a blockchain DAO? You could even have a fully remote kibbutz that way.

Re: Kibbutz

#15

Post by petra »

solatic wrote: post #4

Interesting to find this on the front page. I lived on a kibbutz for nearly three years, and left a few years ago. Like most insular communities, there's a lot to like when looking at it from the outside. People live in comfortable homes and have plenty to eat, with plenty of modern accoutrements like Internet access and the like. The community is quiet, with houses linked by footpaths instead of roads. The sense of…

//People who turned their external salaries over to the kibbutz were often exploited, earning salaries that were a fraction of market rate, because they wouldn't see any of the extra.

Sure, that doesn't seem fair, but how do you price a free house, and an option for one for your children, in a country where most people live in apartments and only something like the top 10% live in houses?

And how do you price the job security a kibbutz gets you? In a country with a tough job market?

Re: Kibbutz

#16

Post by bsaul »

i always find it surprising how in every conversation i had with friend from the far left, they always forget to mention that there was actually one successful attempt at living in the "communism" mindset, without turning into a totalitarian regime.

The thing is the hate israel gets today (especially from the left) prevents them from ever using this argument.

Re: Kibbutz

#17

Post by petra »

vogon_laureate wrote: post #8
solatic wrote: post #4

Interesting to find this on the front page. I lived on a kibbutz for nearly three years, and left a few years ago. Like most insular communities, there's a lot to like when looking at it from the outside. People live in comfortable homes and have plenty to eat, with plenty of modern accoutrements like Internet access and the like. The community is quiet, with houses linked by footpaths instead of roads. The sense of…

Yep. There’s a reason they have not become the dominant mode for living. Moshavim were already an exit strategy for many. I’ve seen similar internal conflicts and power issues in anarchist communities and worker co-ops in Europe too. Still, I do appreciate that in the early days kibbutzim were a pragmatic and necessary strategy for group cohesion and cooperation under stressful conditions.

I think they haven't become the dominant mode because they only work at the small scale, and are far from the densities of cities, which are often a necessity.

And they're also harder to build, socially. Cities are just easier.

Re: Kibbutz

#18

Post by Havoc »

shimonabi wrote: post #10

I have no idea why this is posted on HN. There was an another story here a few days ago about some economics professor turned hardcore free-market objectivist, becase he lived in a kibbutz in his youth. Look, it isn't for everyone, but why not let people live how they want. Some prefer giving up some personal liberty for the collective communal experience.

People occasionally post random stuff that might seem interesting to others. Sometimes they hit the mark sometimes less so.

I guess someone that has never heard of a Kibbutz might find it interesting

Re: Kibbutz

#19

Post by solatic »

petra wrote: post #15
solatic wrote: post #4

Interesting to find this on the front page. I lived on a kibbutz for nearly three years, and left a few years ago. Like most insular communities, there's a lot to like when looking at it from the outside. People live in comfortable homes and have plenty to eat, with plenty of modern accoutrements like Internet access and the like. The community is quiet, with houses linked by footpaths instead of roads. The sense of…

//People who turned their external salaries over to the kibbutz were often exploited, earning salaries that were a fraction of market rate, because they wouldn't see any of the extra. Sure, that doesn't seem fair, but how do you price a free house, and an option for one for your children, in a country where most people live in apartments and only something like the top 10% live in houses? And how do you price the job…

You misunderstand, I guess because I kept my post brief. This person was a software engineer working for a non-kibbutz company, so the non-kibbutz company was paying that person's salary to a kibbutz bank account rather than to the person. The salary was about $30,000/year for an end-of-career senior developer, who was easily worth triple that or more. From her perspective, she didn't see a point in trying to move jobs or ask for market-rate, because either way, whatever salary she earned went straight to the kibbutz. The kibbutz didn't complain about the exploitation salary because it was "enough" and the non-engineers running the kibbutz didn't know what people are supposed to be paid.

So everybody loses. The kibbutz loses because it gets way less hard cash than it would otherwise be able to get. She lost, leave the economics out of it for the sake of argument, because the reality of exploitation is that you suffer in your work relationships as a result.

A kibbutz doesn't give you job security. If you are supposed to be earning from outside the kibbutz, and stop working, then you face social ostracism and shame within the insular community. That's not security.

Re: Kibbutz

#20

Post by llimos »

bsaul wrote: post #16

i always find it surprising how in every conversation i had with friend from the far left, they always forget to mention that there was actually one successful attempt at living in the "communism" mindset, without turning into a totalitarian regime. The thing is the hate israel gets today (especially from the left) prevents them from ever using this argument.

This is true, but the difference is obvious. People join kibbutzim because they want to. Voluntary communism might work; imposed communism never has.
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