Live data from Hacker News

Child's burial 78k years ago in Kenya was a Homo sapiens milestone

reuters.com

11–20 of 68 posts

Re: Child's burial 78k years ago in Kenya was a Homo sapiens milestone

#11
post #7

Interesting as this is, the article nurtures an old misconception (with roots both in religion and classical philosophy) that there are some traits that distinctly separates humans from other animals, and by extension, finding the time when humans developed that trait is when we became truly humans. In reality the evidence reveals that all such traits, be it burial, toolmaking, artistry, abstract thinking etc, is som…

> evidence reveals that all such traits, be it burial, toolmaking, artistry, abstract thinking etc, is something we share with other species to varying degrees If actual achievements speak louder than words, then "varying degrees" is a huge gap between human and other species. Yes, we know that numerous animals exhibit intelligence and emotions, but that does not change the fact that humans are very different when it…

> there is no other animal out there who […] developed some kind of societal system to expands its own resources beyond what's available in the wild.

The trouble with this sort of quasi-dualistic general statement in my experience is it doesn’t hold up well to scrutiny by domain experts. Another way of looking at this is that humans have shaped their “wild” environment to their advantage which is something many animals do. The trouble is in defining wild here - your point rests heavily on a definition along the lines of “shaped entirely by non-human forces” which is a circular argument. For example (and I’m no expert) but think of dam making by beavers and whether the resulting pools which expand their habitat and food are “wild”?

I’d agree with you that there is a qualitative difference between say industrial society and the rest of the animal world, but it’s not easy to nail down that difference in a way which doesn’t wind up excluding much of human history.

Re: Child's burial 78k years ago in Kenya was a Homo sapiens milestone

#12
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt we learned it from elephants, rather it is a product of higher consciousness. Empathy with another being and realizing it can be lost.

It isn't an inevitable product though. E.g.[1]: > Mongolian culture is famous, along with Tibetans, for "sky burial," which leaves the body of the deceased on a high unprotected place to be exposed to the elements and devoured by wildlife. It's part of a Vajrayana Buddhist outlook about the needlessness of "respecting" the body after death. Personally, I'd prefer if this was what would happen to my body than any West…

Serious question; How is Mongolian "return to nature" similar with Tibetian "We have no space for burial grounds" similar? Isn't this more of a case of flexible religion or more of a flexible "monk" trying to fit in as many traditions as possible into one religion?

Re: Child's burial 78k years ago in Kenya was a Homo sapiens milestone

#13

Interesting as this is, the article nurtures an old misconception (with roots both in religion and classical philosophy) that there are some traits that distinctly separates humans from other animals, and by extension, finding the time when humans developed that trait is when we became truly humans. In reality the evidence reveals that all such traits, be it burial, toolmaking, artistry, abstract thinking etc, is som…

You’re right in a sense that traits are continuous. But I think the notion of bifurcation point can be useful here. At some point there’s a dramatic change in how system behaves.

Re: Child's burial 78k years ago in Kenya was a Homo sapiens milestone

#14
post #13

Interesting as this is, the article nurtures an old misconception (with roots both in religion and classical philosophy) that there are some traits that distinctly separates humans from other animals, and by extension, finding the time when humans developed that trait is when we became truly humans. In reality the evidence reveals that all such traits, be it burial, toolmaking, artistry, abstract thinking etc, is som…

You’re right in a sense that traits are continuous. But I think the notion of bifurcation point can be useful here. At some point there’s a dramatic change in how system behaves.

That’s true and I think there were two inflection points in human evolution.

One is the development of modified tools and fire. Yes I know that’s two things, but they’re both very ancient and probably were enabled by the adaptation that gave us language. It’s possible there were several adaptations there but I suspect they all came from one fundamental advance in cognition. This drove a series of major evolutionary changes that adapted us to a tool and fire using mode of living.

The second I think was prefrontal synthesis, at around the time this child was buried. This enabled us to form complex linguistic concepts (take this Apple and give it to the girl on the other side of the wall) and create tools with multiple features composed together, such as needles with an eye hole.

Pretty much everything else derived from these innovations, or at least the cognitive capabilities that enabled them.

So yes of course we have abilities other animals don’t have, but we also have a lot in common. Showing reverence and tenderness for the dead is definitely something we share with many other mammals, but complex funerary rituals with associated burial objects are more a human thing.

Re: Child's burial 78k years ago in Kenya was a Homo sapiens milestone

#15

Interesting as this is, the article nurtures an old misconception (with roots both in religion and classical philosophy) that there are some traits that distinctly separates humans from other animals, and by extension, finding the time when humans developed that trait is when we became truly humans. In reality the evidence reveals that all such traits, be it burial, toolmaking, artistry, abstract thinking etc, is som…

> Interesting as this is, the article nurtures an old misconception (with roots both in religion and classical philosophy) that there are some traits that distinctly separates humans from other animals, and by extension, finding the time when humans developed that trait is when we became truly humans. In reality the evidence reveals that all such traits, be it burial, toolmaking, artistry, abstract thinking etc, is something we share with other species to varying degrees. To the extent we have any unique such traits currently that radically sets us apart from other species then it has been a long and gradual process over eons.

Both these things can be true.

There are traits that distinctly separate us .. which have also developed gradually over a long period of time.

I think the article is acknowledging a common behaviour between humans and a distance relative to humans; if anything it's backing up your assertion that development has occurred over a long and gradual process.

Re: Child's burial 78k years ago in Kenya was a Homo sapiens milestone

#16

Interesting as this is, the article nurtures an old misconception (with roots both in religion and classical philosophy) that there are some traits that distinctly separates humans from other animals, and by extension, finding the time when humans developed that trait is when we became truly humans. In reality the evidence reveals that all such traits, be it burial, toolmaking, artistry, abstract thinking etc, is som…

There is always a comment like this in one of these threads that makes me think too much education can be a bad thing.

Most uneducated people in the world can tell you that there are many traits which distinguish people from animals: religion, our souls, our ability to learn about the world around us, the fact that we act on reason and not on instinct, our ability to read and write, etc. It's perhaps one of the most obvious things in the world that humans are exceptional amongst living beings on Earth.

But with enough fancy words and misapplied education, you can say things like "Oh Elephants have burials too, so human beings aren't special, we're just wild purposeless animals also. Only silly religious people think humans are special"

Re: Child's burial 78k years ago in Kenya was a Homo sapiens milestone

#17
post #11
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> evidence reveals that all such traits, be it burial, toolmaking, artistry, abstract thinking etc, is something we share with other species to varying degrees If actual achievements speak louder than words, then "varying degrees" is a huge gap between human and other species. Yes, we know that numerous animals exhibit intelligence and emotions, but that does not change the fact that humans are very different when it…

> there is no other animal out there who […] developed some kind of societal system to expands its own resources beyond what's available in the wild. The trouble with this sort of quasi-dualistic general statement in my experience is it doesn’t hold up well to scrutiny by domain experts. Another way of looking at this is that humans have shaped their “wild” environment to their advantage which is something many anima…

I was going to say that.

We can see the Great Wall of China from space.

And we can also see beaver dams from space.

(Note the Great Wall was built for a mundane reason - the Han people couldn't defeat the Mongols on horseback, but they could keep building walls until the horses could no longer enter. Byzantium/Constantinople also adopted that strategy, which worked for over 1,000 years until the Ottomans built the world's largest cannon and blasted holes in it.)

Re: Child's burial 78k years ago in Kenya was a Homo sapiens milestone

#18
post #14
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right in a sense that traits are continuous. But I think the notion of bifurcation point can be useful here. At some point there’s a dramatic change in how system behaves.

That’s true and I think there were two inflection points in human evolution. One is the development of modified tools and fire. Yes I know that’s two things, but they’re both very ancient and probably were enabled by the adaptation that gave us language. It’s possible there were several adaptations there but I suspect they all came from one fundamental advance in cognition. This drove a series of major evolutionary c…

I agree.

I think language was the big differentiator here. Being able to contextualise, to tell stories .. and imagine worlds before and after one's own, must have accelerated the brain's development exponentially.

Re: Child's burial 78k years ago in Kenya was a Homo sapiens milestone

#19
post #12
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't an inevitable product though. E.g.[1]: > Mongolian culture is famous, along with Tibetans, for "sky burial," which leaves the body of the deceased on a high unprotected place to be exposed to the elements and devoured by wildlife. It's part of a Vajrayana Buddhist outlook about the needlessness of "respecting" the body after death. Personally, I'd prefer if this was what would happen to my body than any West…

Serious question; How is Mongolian "return to nature" similar with Tibetian "We have no space for burial grounds" similar? Isn't this more of a case of flexible religion or more of a flexible "monk" trying to fit in as many traditions as possible into one religion?

The practice is similar. The motivation is different. The quoted paragraph may be phrased a bit poorly. I don't think the Mongolian practice has anything to do with Buddhism.

Re: Child's burial 78k years ago in Kenya was a Homo sapiens milestone

#20
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt we learned it from elephants, rather it is a product of higher consciousness. Empathy with another being and realizing it can be lost.

It isn't an inevitable product though. E.g.[1]: > Mongolian culture is famous, along with Tibetans, for "sky burial," which leaves the body of the deceased on a high unprotected place to be exposed to the elements and devoured by wildlife. It's part of a Vajrayana Buddhist outlook about the needlessness of "respecting" the body after death. Personally, I'd prefer if this was what would happen to my body than any West…

It's not Buddhism per se, The Zoroastrians (religion of pre-islamic Persia) also practice this by leaving the bodies in "towers of silence" for birds of prey to devour them.
Post reply on HN