How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning • Hacker News Board

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#11

Post by DubiousPusher » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:41 AM UTC

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #6

A lot of invention and innovation in the past few decades is focused around doing more with less - e.g IKEA furniture made out of wood shavings vs. real wood years ago, apartments made more efficient and compact vs. big houses years ago, more biking and public transit vs. enough roads to fit everyone years ago. My theory is that on a macro level, the world keeps getting more competitive because we keep on churning ou…

Economically speaking it is not necessarily a fact that more people will drive the living standard lower. That is basically a disproved 19th century theory. In fact, more people makes a healthy economy richer overall. Because in a healthy economy, each added person contributes more than their economic cost. This creates net wealth for the society.

Some of the problem we're seeing with costs is coming from the opposite of a decrease in footprint but from an increase. A small apartment seems cheaper and compared to a modern house it is. But a modern small apartment has many more requirements than even a mansion from 1890. The safety, environmental and equipment demands of a modern home of any kind are much greater.

On the other hand there has been a concerted effort to hold wages flat for the people at the bottom half of the income ladder. These two things taken together largely account for the perceived decline in quality of life for most people.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#12

Post by julienchastang » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:49 AM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #9

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #6

A lot of invention and innovation in the past few decades is focused around doing more with less - e.g IKEA furniture made out of wood shavings vs. real wood years ago, apartments made more efficient and compact vs. big houses years ago, more biking and public transit vs. enough roads to fit everyone years ago. My theory is that on a macro level, the world keeps getting more competitive because we keep on churning ou…

> and there's no sign of stopping Actually, there's every sign of stopping. Look at population growth rates from the 1970s to now: in general, the wealthier you make a population, the less kids they have.

Exactly. The world population is expected to peak in the coming decades and then start declining slowly thereafter (presenting its own set of challenges).

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#13

Post by sashavegas » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:51 AM UTC

Consider old Russian system

After 8 years of school there were exams (written and spoken) where person would be selected to go to 2 more years of school (equivalent of hi school) or if he performs poorly on exam, he can go to professional school for associated degree.

The person who goes to 2 more years of hi school, take exam again, and receive diploma.

Then the person can apply to any university, but to get there it was require to take another 4-5 exams, (entry exams) based on selected study subject. For example, if person decided to go to math/physics, it was required to pass 4 exams (2 for math, written and spoken) and 2 for physics. Based on result, (average score from all entry exams) the person either accepted or not.

If he not accepted, he can repeat it next year or go for associated degree or some lower school.

It was very nice system, where everybody have a shot based on brain and knowledge, no matter from what school person was.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#14

Post by HenryKissinger » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:52 AM UTC

In some countries, like France and the United kingdom, the educational pyramid is even more skewed. In the United kingdom, graduates of Oxford University and Cambridge University are in a class of their own. Oxbridge alumni are overrepresented in politics, business, and the media. In France, the same phenomenon is at work with the École Polytechnique, the Écoles Normales Supérieures, and a few others. This creates sharp social stratifications and popular resentment among working people that "elites" (defined overwhelmingly as people with significant economic capital, political influence, and elite pedigrees) are detached from the reality on the ground. Donald Trump's election in 2016 has been dissected and explained hundred different ways. But it is undeniable that his victory (despite the fact that he lost the popular vote by approximately three million) is attributable in part to popular resentment against political and business elites.

Countries with more equal societies, like the Nordics, and Canada, do not have strong populist movements like those in the US and the UK.

This is only going to get worse. The ruthless competition to get into elite colleges is both a cause, and a product of, economic inequality. The article mentions that the graduates of law schools ranked in the top 10 earn 50% more than the graduates of law schools ranked 21-100, and that investment banks recruit mostly from a handful of targets.

If prospective law students were confident they could earn 90% as much, or 100% as much, as graduates from T-10 law schools, if they attended lower ranked schools, there wouldn't be so much competition to get into the same handful of elite schools.

This winner take all economy is stupid, and it's making us sick in pursuit of success. People should act in their best personal interests, and this competition is the result. We can't blame parents for wanting the best outcomes for their children. But everyone deserves a bit of blame, some more than others, for helping make American society so unequal.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#15

Post by mnouquet » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:52 AM UTC

DubiousPusher wrote: post #5

hnzix wrote: post #2

This has become so culturally ingrained that people will casually shame a person for studying an Arts or Humanities degree. "Have fun working at McDonalds you idiot!" An economy is not a society.

I am very troubled by this. Because humanities degree holders are the true carriers of our cultures. Local history, news and art you won't find on the internet. You can't read about my town's coal history on wikipedia. A local historian does that. These people are the ones that work with the primary sources, sifitng them and passing on the highlights. As we squeeze these people down we lose our own selves. We need a…

> Because humanities degree holders are the true carriers of our cultures.

Do you mean by putting themselves on a pedestal without having experienced life _at_all_ and living in nothing but theories. Yeah, sure.

> These people are the ones that work with the primary sources, sifitng them and passing on the highlights.

These days, they are more the people re-writing history to fit a narrative, against any hard evidence.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#16

Post by starchild_3001 » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:53 AM UTC

College is a mix of virtue signaling, a proof of analytical and other abilities, a learning environment. Employers want smart and capable people, best colleges produce the smartest and often most capable people. Roughly speaking there's a good match.

If we were all identical droids, authors like this would be most satisfied. That would completely eliminate inequality. And would ensure 100% (or 0%) social mobility, depending on how you look at it.

Too bad we aren't identical droids.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#17

Post by ghaff » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:54 AM UTC

hnzix wrote: post #2

This has become so culturally ingrained that people will casually shame a person for studying an Arts or Humanities degree. "Have fun working at McDonalds you idiot!" An economy is not a society.

I do have an engineering degree, have worked as an engineer, and am still in at least a quasi-technical role. I also only semi-joke that the time I spent on student newspapers and the like undergrad has probably been more useful to me than a lot of the engineering courses I took for much of my career.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#18

Post by molesy » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:59 AM UTC

sashavegas wrote: post #13

Consider old Russian system After 8 years of school there were exams (written and spoken) where person would be selected to go to 2 more years of school (equivalent of hi school) or if he performs poorly on exam, he can go to professional school for associated degree. The person who goes to 2 more years of hi school, take exam again, and receive diploma. Then the person can apply to any university, but to get there i…

https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.1556

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#19

Post by jollybean » Fri, May 07, 2021, 2:06 AM UTC

sashavegas wrote: post #13

Consider old Russian system After 8 years of school there were exams (written and spoken) where person would be selected to go to 2 more years of school (equivalent of hi school) or if he performs poorly on exam, he can go to professional school for associated degree. The person who goes to 2 more years of hi school, take exam again, and receive diploma. Then the person can apply to any university, but to get there i…

It's a little bit of a desperate attempt at meritocracy however. Affluent parents will still be able to generate systems where their kids get better scores. And 'better scores on exams' might be a very crude predictor of future skills, it's not remotely all encompassing. So 'selecting' for your elite on the basis of a few exams at age 18 is probably a bad idea.

Macron just announced the closure of the 'Grand Ecole' of Administration for this reason.

Basically, France (and Europe inc. UK) traded their Nobility for a more meritocratic system, i.e. Elite Schools, but the notion that 'all the power goes to kids from those schools' is a little ridiculous as well. (Edit: all the power does go to kids from those schools, that is ridiculous, I'm not saying the 'idea that this exists' is ridiculous).

And FYI even if the Soviet System was a little more flat ... in the current Western systems (with deep problems) there are scholarships aplenty for top students. It's just hard for young kids to internalize the importance of a good education. In high school, I really had no idea how important it would be.

Elite schools are worthwhile however, I wish early education were not so competitive, and, we didn't focus quite so much on the name brand of a school.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#20

Post by spekcular » Fri, May 07, 2021, 2:08 AM UTC

planet-and-halo wrote: post #10

Anatole_maarika wrote: post #4

Something that keeps me up at night is my fear that I only studied computer science and became a programmer because of economic and status reasons. I do feel incredibly lucky to have the job and freedom I do, but it drains me. And now I feel it's such a specialized education and I didn't explore enough to know anything else, and so I have no idea if I would have liked something completely different.

You may not be in school any more, but you can still study whatever you want. I went the other direction: studied humanities in school, taught myself programming once I was working as a professional because I found it intriguing, and now I do this for a living. You have a whole lifetime. If you want to learn something, you can do it. Even Einstein got started in his spare time.

Hold on a second. While I totally support self-directed learning, "Even Einstein got started in his spare time" seems to suggest that he learned physics recreationally. My apologies if you did not intend this, but just to clarify, this is definitely not the case. He earned a PhD from the University of Zurich, which is about the most traditional path in theoretical physics education possible!