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Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#11

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

cigaser wrote: post #10
titoCA321 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't really matter, waiver or not. It's not like most industries or people can go about making this vaccines themselves. That's why I sometimes laugh about these folks that what to invalidate patents and have everything in the open. If Toyota posted schematics of their trucks online, do you think, you and I could build one without throwing resources, time, and money down a toilet? I would have better luck growing…

India is manufacturing AstraZeneca and other vaccines for export. Prior pandemic India manufactured 2.3 billion vaccines annually. Patent fees are big part of expenses. RNA based experiments are doable in most university labs. It is 2021.

> RNA based experiments are doable in most university labs. This is 2021.

There is a huge difference between doing RNA experiments versus manufacturing millions of doses of mRNA vaccine without errors or contamination.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#12

Post by johnchristopher »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #6

I feel like this is killing the goose that laid the golden egg. The Covid vaccines are one of the greatest success stories of modern medicine ever, and are literally worth trillions. I want the companies and investors in the pharmaceuticals that have made these to become fabulously wealthy as an incentive for companies to invest in the capabilities to produce these. I want creating a successful vaccine to be a bigger…

> I feel like this is killing the goose that laid the golden egg. The Covid vaccines are one of the greatest success stories of modern medicine ever, and are literally worth trillions.

And it took a global pandemic for pharma to realize it so maybe they aren't totally up to the task. And it seems the consensus is that states provided much needed money to turn mrna vaccines into a real thing.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#13

Post by peterburkimsher »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #11
cigaser wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India is manufacturing AstraZeneca and other vaccines for export. Prior pandemic India manufactured 2.3 billion vaccines annually. Patent fees are big part of expenses. RNA based experiments are doable in most university labs. It is 2021.

> RNA based experiments are doable in most university labs. This is 2021. There is a huge difference between doing RNA experiments versus manufacturing millions of doses of mRNA vaccine without errors or contamination.

I know enough financially broke startups to confirm that a working prototype is only a small part of a successful business.

The approach to intellectual property in China is much more open, partly because the leaders understand that technical expertise is more than just a one-off design, and competitors probably can't enter the market without significant capital investment and risk. In the case of healthcare, I suspect that regulators will prevent any vaccines manufactured with sub-standard procedures, such as those made in university labs.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#14

Post by bdibs »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #6

I feel like this is killing the goose that laid the golden egg. The Covid vaccines are one of the greatest success stories of modern medicine ever, and are literally worth trillions. I want the companies and investors in the pharmaceuticals that have made these to become fabulously wealthy as an incentive for companies to invest in the capabilities to produce these. I want creating a successful vaccine to be a bigger…

Moderna themselves have pledged (temporarily) not to enforce their COVID-19 patents anyways, so I’m not sure who you’re defending.

If McDonalds gave out their hamburger recipe today, I don’t think they’d be on the brink of bankruptcy tomorrow.

I would imagine stopping a global pandemic is in the best interest of everyone, including the creators of any vaccine. They’ve made a killing so far and will continue to make plenty of money, patents or not.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#15

Post by yokaze »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #6

I feel like this is killing the goose that laid the golden egg. The Covid vaccines are one of the greatest success stories of modern medicine ever, and are literally worth trillions. I want the companies and investors in the pharmaceuticals that have made these to become fabulously wealthy as an incentive for companies to invest in the capabilities to produce these. I want creating a successful vaccine to be a bigger…

> I feel like this is killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

That is quite hyperbolic, because at worst it will reduce profits, but hardly "kill" them.

> I want the companies and investors in the pharmaceuticals that have made these to become fabulously wealthy as an incentive for companies to invest in the capabilities to produce these.

The incentive to invest is the chance of future profits. Those still exists, as the technology has a lot of use-cases beyond covid-19 vaccines. The vaccine is just the show-case of that.

> The stock of these companies dropped on this announcement.

Short-term developments are hardly a good indicator for future development.

> Long term this kind of patent waiver will drive investment and at some level smart people from these companies.

You really think, losing the ability to profit more from a, hopefully, once in a century event will determine, if someone invests in something in the future? And by that not being able to profit from the technology in all the other areas they can improve?

I really doubt that.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#16

Post by tobessebot »

double-a wrote: post #7
titoCA321 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't really matter, waiver or not. It's not like most industries or people can go about making this vaccines themselves. That's why I sometimes laugh about these folks that what to invalidate patents and have everything in the open. If Toyota posted schematics of their trucks online, do you think, you and I could build one without throwing resources, time, and money down a toilet? I would have better luck growing…

Cool. So then these companies should have nothing to fear.

They rightly fear that in 2-3 years, when the pandemic is likely over everywhere and other people have figured out how to commercialize the IP, they won't be the only ones producing their vaccines.

This isn't going to help India or anyone in the short term and there'll be more than enough doses for every person on Earth by next year. Why should they not retain the IP rights to make a profit on new generations that need to be vaccinated or potential booster shots? The manufacturing capacity will have been built up so scarcity won't be a problem at that point.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#17

Post by nickpp »

My initial, knee-jerk view was that the government is stealing private property. Bad, bad government screwing with the free market!

But here we are talking about Intellectual Property and patents. Which themselves are a government-granted monopoly...

Truth is patents are mostly used to stifle innovation while their original purpose was to encourage it. A company inventing something novel will have a pretty nice advantage over the competition even without the government's help. That's not even taking into consideration that besides patents there are other tons of difficulties when copying a product. Manufacturing alone is pretty huge. Then marketing: the original vs the cheap knock-offs.

When in doubt, I think it's better to err on the side of the free market and of non-intervention. But, to come full circle, in this case the government encouraged companies to publish their research with the promise to protect it. So my only conclusion is, again, to never trust the government.

/rant

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#18

Post by PeterisP »

supernova87a wrote: post #3

How would a "waiver" work? Last I understood about law, a country can't take away the rights of companies (or people) without their consent or modifying the patent laws. Or is this a matter where because it has to do with overseas patent protection, the US could decline to enforce certain agreements? And don't companies have patent protection in every country they seek to do business anyway?

> a country can't take away the rights of companies (or people) without their consent or modifying the patent laws.

That's not a problem, modifying laws is the default way how countries do things - if a country says "we'll do X" they most likely mean "we'll modify our laws so that X will happen".

But IIRC the patent laws of many countries already contain specific clauses for a simplified process to void patents for lifesaving reasons if they want to do it.

And it's worth noting that patents aren't a right, it's a privilege selectively granted by the government because the government expects that the process as a whole benefits the general society (by facilitating innovation and publishing of technical innovations instead of hiding them), not because the patent owners have a right to require it. The government does not have to offer patent protection; it chooses to grant a temporary monopoly for a limited time if certain conditions are met, and it can (essentially arbitrarily) decide what those conditions are.

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#19

Post by celticninja »

supernova87a wrote: post #3

How would a "waiver" work? Last I understood about law, a country can't take away the rights of companies (or people) without their consent or modifying the patent laws. Or is this a matter where because it has to do with overseas patent protection, the US could decline to enforce certain agreements? And don't companies have patent protection in every country they seek to do business anyway?

https://www.mondaq.com/india/patent/865888/patents-and-the-i...

Re: Covid: US backs waiver on vaccine intellectual property

#20

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

nickpp wrote: post #17

My initial, knee-jerk view was that the government is stealing private property. Bad, bad government screwing with the free market! But here we are talking about Intellectual Property and patents. Which themselves are a government-granted monopoly... Truth is patents are mostly used to stifle innovation while their original purpose was to encourage it. A company inventing something novel will have a pretty nice advan…

How does the knowledge that the USA alone put up $9 billion distributed to seven companies to aid development of the vaccines effect your position, and that the waiver is intended to be only temporary?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/08/08/feds-s...

Federal spending on COVID-19 vaccine candidates tops $9 billion, spread among 7 companies

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