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Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

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Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#11

Post by nucleardog »

Gunax wrote: post #9

The libertarian in me says yes, but practically I know there are very few heroin users who are otherwise normal. The problem with the victimless claim is that it's literally true, but practically absurd. I am conflicted.

And yet, despite it being illegal you apparently know heroin users.

So what exactly is criminalizing it accomplishing?

I agree that people shouldn’t use heroin. But obviously prohibition is not working.

Just to throw all the cards on the table, I'm by no means what anyone these days would describe as "libertarian". I don't think drugs should be legal for the sake of everything being legal, I think they should be legal because making them illegal doesn't accomplish the singular goal of stopping people from using them, and creates a lot of other deleterious effects.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#12

Post by grphtrdr »

alpineidyll3 wrote: post #7

Flip that. What's the social value of criminalizing any drug consumption? Profit and advertisement of these products should be banned, and the state should provide addicts with clean supplies at-cost to out compete criminal enterprises. The amount of violence this would avoid in the Americas is staggering, and clearly desirable.

I think we are at the point in the United States that we almost have a moral responsibility to decriminalize all drugs just to assist with defunding the Mexican cartels.

When you add that in with what it would do to violence in the US directly, I don't see how someone can argue the other side from a moral perspective.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#13

Post by herbst »

We have legal and clean heroin given out, for basically free, by the state here in switzerland and from my personal experience these are the least city image damaging junkies ive seen around europe. Many of them even have regular work as they have no need to get criminal for their next shot.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#14

Post by bladegash »

nucleardog wrote: post #11
Gunax wrote: post #9

The libertarian in me says yes, but practically I know there are very few heroin users who are otherwise normal. The problem with the victimless claim is that it's literally true, but practically absurd. I am conflicted.

And yet, despite it being illegal you apparently know heroin users. So what exactly is criminalizing it accomplishing? I agree that people shouldn’t use heroin. But obviously prohibition is not working. Just to throw all the cards on the table, I'm by no means what anyone these days would describe as "libertarian". I don't think drugs should be legal for the sake of everything being legal, I think they should be lega…

To preface this, I am and have been conflicted on this topic as well. I lean a bit towards the possibility of finding a balance between efforts to reduce supply (e.g., some form of criminalization) while also treating demand (e.g., research into causes/factors leading to drug use, free substance abuse treatment, methadone/suboxone, etc.).

That being said, I don't think anyone expects criminalization to yield zero use. I think the goal of criminalization is to make it more difficult to obtain the drugs and to dissuade people from starting drug use and/or continuing it.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#15

Post by scaramanga »

solipsism wrote: post #6
seibelj wrote: post #5

The only arguments against legalizing heroin are paternalistic - not trusting people to be responsible. In a bygone era I was prescribed Percocet for a dental procedure, which I have been told is an extremely strong opioid, and I did not like the numb feeling and eventually threw them away. So I have 100% proof that not everyone who takes opioids gets addicted and winds up in the gutter. The absolute truth is that dr…

drug use is a victimless crime That's not remotely true. Use of certain drugs (such as heroin) leads to horrible expectations for children of addicts. These children can only be thought of as victims of heroin use. Now I'm not saying that should be used to curtail the freedom of non-parents. But the experience of children shouldn't be ignored either. And I'm the first person who will agree that alcohol abuse in the h…

The question here is whether drug prohibition is a victimless crime. And it's clearly not.

Besides, many _users_ of heroin are medicinal users who do not have victims (elderly patients on the NHS for example). You are conflating drug use with problematic drug use and concluding that problematic drug use is problematic, which is a tautology.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#16

Post by mmcwilliams »

Gunax wrote: post #9

The libertarian in me says yes, but practically I know there are very few heroin users who are otherwise normal. The problem with the victimless claim is that it's literally true, but practically absurd. I am conflicted.

I’m not sure where you are drawing the figure “relatively few” from but a side effect of the illegality of heroin is that functional (or “normal”) users don’t typically broadcast their usage for fear of being arrested or stigmatized. There are many people who fall into disfunction or death but the relative amount is difficult to gauge, especially when you broaden the pool to include opiate users more generally.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#17

Post by ianai »

grphtrdr wrote: post #12
alpineidyll3 wrote: post #7

Flip that. What's the social value of criminalizing any drug consumption? Profit and advertisement of these products should be banned, and the state should provide addicts with clean supplies at-cost to out compete criminal enterprises. The amount of violence this would avoid in the Americas is staggering, and clearly desirable.

I think we are at the point in the United States that we almost have a moral responsibility to decriminalize all drugs just to assist with defunding the Mexican cartels. When you add that in with what it would do to violence in the US directly, I don't see how someone can argue the other side from a moral perspective.

Agreed. Want to make serious strides on illegal immigration to the US? Remove the funding of the cartels.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#18

Post by awillen »

alpineidyll3 wrote: post #7

Flip that. What's the social value of criminalizing any drug consumption? Profit and advertisement of these products should be banned, and the state should provide addicts with clean supplies at-cost to out compete criminal enterprises. The amount of violence this would avoid in the Americas is staggering, and clearly desirable.

At the very minimum we should immediately legalize anything that's clearly less dangerous than alcohol (which is a lot of stuff given that alcohol is very dangerous/destructive). Marijuana, most hallucinogens, etc.

Anyone who is arguing that marijuana, MDMA, etc. should not be legalized is an absolute hypocrite unless they're also campaigning to bring back prohibition of alcohol.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#19

Post by Gravey »

grphtrdr wrote: post #12
alpineidyll3 wrote: post #7

Flip that. What's the social value of criminalizing any drug consumption? Profit and advertisement of these products should be banned, and the state should provide addicts with clean supplies at-cost to out compete criminal enterprises. The amount of violence this would avoid in the Americas is staggering, and clearly desirable.

I think we are at the point in the United States that we almost have a moral responsibility to decriminalize all drugs just to assist with defunding the Mexican cartels. When you add that in with what it would do to violence in the US directly, I don't see how someone can argue the other side from a moral perspective.

Could you explain how decriminalization helps to defund the cartels?

With legalization comes regulation and better control over the supply chain. I don’t see how decriminalization accomplishes anything other than saving court costs/costs of imprisonment.

Re: Is There a Case for Legalizing Heroin?

#20

Post by randompwd »

ianai wrote: post #17
grphtrdr wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we are at the point in the United States that we almost have a moral responsibility to decriminalize all drugs just to assist with defunding the Mexican cartels. When you add that in with what it would do to violence in the US directly, I don't see how someone can argue the other side from a moral perspective.

Agreed. Want to make serious strides on illegal immigration to the US? Remove the funding of the cartels.

...or force them to quadruple down on alternative income streams such as human smuggling instead of drug smuggling.
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