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63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

euronews.com

11–20 of 39 posts

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#11
post #9

People who do not need cars or who have access to an alternative to ICE don't have a problem. Obviously. The issue is the large number of people who rely on cars for work, and especially who rely on vans for work. There must be viable alternative to ICE vehicles for these people, otherwise hitting diesel (or petrol) vehicles can have the consequences seen for instance in France with the "Yellow vests".

> The issue is the large number of people who rely on cars for work Sooo sure. But the only reason most people need cars for work is because we just build car-friendly infrastructure and then all of a sudden we need cars. Imagine if we just built mixed-use walkable neighborhoods and towns of medium density. Why would we need cars? Or at least why would we need so many? It’s different in Europe to some extent, at leas…

> It’s different in Europe to some extent, at least, since many Europeans have access to alternatives.

There's a romantic idea that Europeans do not need cars but the reality is quite different.

It's true that people who live in central Paris, central London, or other large cities may not need cars but the majority of people outside these large cities do rely on cars. This is true in France, in the UK, and I suspect other countries as well. And, again, many professional and tradespeople need cars/vans.

This cannot change overnight. Realistically this probably won't change at all even if we do reduce the need for cars around town centres.

All I'm saying is that getting rid of ICE vehicles has to go hand in hand with availability of affordable EV (including vans, lorries, and utility vehicles). We can't just say "ICE are bad so let's just ban them".

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#12
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely there is some compromise. Diesel is far worse than petrol for local pollution for example. So let's ban diesel in the city, then as electric becomes more viable, we can finally ban petrol as well. We shouldn't have sympathy for things that actively harm people's health. Society shouldn't favor an individual over the harm they do to many more people. A white diesel van driving around all day, idling in front of…

> We shouldn't have sympathy for things that actively harm people's health. This is besides the point and no-one has suggested that. Politically, economically, and socially, we cannot take livelihoods away from people. If ICE vehicles are no longer acceptable then there has to be a viable alternative for everyone, not only for city-dwellers or people who don't need cars/vans. I mentioned the yellow vests in France be…

What else can be done?

In order to reach climate change targets we must reduce car dependency. How can we do this without nudging people away from cars? And how can we nudge them without taxes?

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We shouldn't have sympathy for things that actively harm people's health. This is besides the point and no-one has suggested that. Politically, economically, and socially, we cannot take livelihoods away from people. If ICE vehicles are no longer acceptable then there has to be a viable alternative for everyone, not only for city-dwellers or people who don't need cars/vans. I mentioned the yellow vests in France be…

What else can be done? In order to reach climate change targets we must reduce car dependency. How can we do this without nudging people away from cars? And how can we nudge them without taxes?

When people live miles from supermarkets and offices and public transport is not a viable option, which is actually the case for most people outside large cities (and even for some large cities), we are not going to be able to nudge people away from cars, this is simply not realistic. It's not realistic either to suggest that we can just rebuild everything so that cars aren't needed. We can try to build so that car are less needed but that's a very slow process.

The only realistic option is to have affordable EVs ASAP that fit all needs because people aren't giving up cars. With the current policy schedule we have about 10 years for this to happen.

Of course, EVs have their own issues, both environmentally and in term of impact on electricity grids, so this is not that simple, either.

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#14

The title is inexact at best, intentionally misleading at worst. Some countries are sampled more than others: 1. UK - 2 cities 2. France - 2 cities 3. Germany - 2 cities 4. Italy - 2 cities 5. Spain - 2 cities 6. Poland - 2 cities 7. Belgium - 2 cities 8. Hungary - 1 cities Other European countries(either from EU, or outside) are not mentioned. EU has 27 member countries, Europe has 50 countries according to Wikipedi…

This is true, but as an example in Hungary Budapest and surroundings contribute about half of all taxes, but we don't have much saying in where the money is spent (mostly on football stadiums and supporting villages/cities that vote for Fidesz).

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#15
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue is the large number of people who rely on cars for work Sooo sure. But the only reason most people need cars for work is because we just build car-friendly infrastructure and then all of a sudden we need cars. Imagine if we just built mixed-use walkable neighborhoods and towns of medium density. Why would we need cars? Or at least why would we need so many? It’s different in Europe to some extent, at leas…

> It’s different in Europe to some extent, at least, since many Europeans have access to alternatives. There's a romantic idea that Europeans do not need cars but the reality is quite different. It's true that people who live in central Paris, central London, or other large cities may not need cars but the majority of people outside these large cities do rely on cars. This is true in France, in the UK, and I suspect…

I don't disagree with you - and I've traveled Europe and agree there is a lot of car use. My challenge is "replace ICE with EV" doesn't solve the problem. The problem is that we have to rely on cars at all, fuel source doesn't matter.

And we continue to perpetuate that reliance by continuing to build in car-first ways. You're definitely right, nothing will change overnight, but I don't think anything will change at all even with EVs.

When Elon Musk talks about self-driving taxis. I lose sleep. It's a nightmare scenario where everybody just lives in a box, gets an automatic box on wheels to come pick them up and then take them to other boxes and then all they do is interact on the Internet. Oh, and we still have to maintain all of these vehicles, the road infrastructure, etc. and we continue to destroy natural habitats so we can spread out instead of just living a little bit closer (you can still have a yard) and designing for people instead of cars.

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#16
European here.

Owning a car means freedom.Public transport is slavery. Being at the mercy of the government was highlighted during this pandemic when governments enforced rules to limit mobility.

I'd rather sit in traffic not wearing FFP2 and be able to visit my parents in another city whenever I want than rely on ineffective and unreliable public transport.

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s different in Europe to some extent, at least, since many Europeans have access to alternatives. There's a romantic idea that Europeans do not need cars but the reality is quite different. It's true that people who live in central Paris, central London, or other large cities may not need cars but the majority of people outside these large cities do rely on cars. This is true in France, in the UK, and I suspect…

I don't disagree with you - and I've traveled Europe and agree there is a lot of car use. My challenge is "replace ICE with EV" doesn't solve the problem. The problem is that we have to rely on cars at all, fuel source doesn't matter. And we continue to perpetuate that reliance by continuing to build in car-first ways. You're definitely right, nothing will change overnight, but I don't think anything will change at a…

Car == freedom. I can literally get up in the middle of the night and be at my parents house in 30 minutes.

With public transport I could barely make it in 3 hours.

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#18

European here. Owning a car means freedom.Public transport is slavery. Being at the mercy of the government was highlighted during this pandemic when governments enforced rules to limit mobility. I'd rather sit in traffic not wearing FFP2 and be able to visit my parents in another city whenever I want than rely on ineffective and unreliable public transport.

It's interesting because you have people in the US that keep touting the public transit system in Europe. What reliability challenges have you seen?

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#19

European here. Owning a car means freedom.Public transport is slavery. Being at the mercy of the government was highlighted during this pandemic when governments enforced rules to limit mobility. I'd rather sit in traffic not wearing FFP2 and be able to visit my parents in another city whenever I want than rely on ineffective and unreliable public transport.

It's interesting because you have people in the US that keep touting the public transit system in Europe. What reliability challenges have you seen?

1) Strikes

These are in some countries more common than you can imagine

2) Safety and Comfort

Full of smelly,weird people

3) Reliability

Sitting in a car in winter/hot summer during a car accident is much more enjoyable experience than waiting outside in the cold/hot until they fix the train/bus.

4) Does not go where I want to go / When I want to go

Public transport is usually useless at night or during public holidays.

5) Subject to stupid politics

For example during this pandemic in my country they demand FFP2 and having COVID-19 test.It's ridiculous.Uncomfortable and expensive. None of that bullshit when you own a car.

6) Useless for spontaneous leisure activities

I can take the car to go for a short trip / weekend getaway without much planning.It's fast and easy to do. If I had to use public transport I would need to plan for it and could not go / leave whenever.

Re: 63% of European City Dwellers Want a Ban on Petrol and Diesel Cars

#20
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with you - and I've traveled Europe and agree there is a lot of car use. My challenge is "replace ICE with EV" doesn't solve the problem. The problem is that we have to rely on cars at all, fuel source doesn't matter. And we continue to perpetuate that reliance by continuing to build in car-first ways. You're definitely right, nothing will change overnight, but I don't think anything will change at a…

Car == freedom. I can literally get up in the middle of the night and be at my parents house in 30 minutes. With public transport I could barely make it in 3 hours.

Unfortunately I just can't get empathize much with this viewpoint. I mean it's fine if you want to own a car, but to the extent it means that we have to suck the planet dry of resources and live increasingly isolated lives to support car infrastructure - I just can't get on board with that. My tax dollars are being wasted over it.
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